I wish Dave Winer hadn’t brought Maryam’s personal conversations with him out into public sphere, but now that he has, what she was hurt about the most about how Dave dealt with her is that Dave didn’t react as a friend to her — it wasn’t just about what was written on his blog either. She is calm about the issue now and has written about the week of anger, but not the conversation with Dave (she hasn’t yet seen Dave’s post this morning, I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it).
When someone calls you, and is hurt, and is a friend your first impulse should be “how can I help?” When she called Dave she called as a friend, not as a blogger.
Dave reacted to her as a blogger instead of as a friend and now Dave took an emotional conversation (she was crying and VERY hurt by what had been said about her) done over phone into the public sphere.
Also, when she first called Dave he didn’t have up some of the other explanations of what had happened, nor the explanations that he had been personally attacked by this mob for quite some time, only this line: “On this one, I take the side of the mean kids, because no one else is, and I have a soft spot for people who are being attacked by a mob, no matter how pathetic they are.”
That made Maryam believe that Dave was taking sides and she didn’t care about the nuance of the civics lesson that Dave was giving her at that time. Keep in mind Maryam sees Dave as a friend (he’s been over here, eaten at the house, spent lots of time with us, etc).
Dave’s thoughts publicly are good ones — trying to calm down the mob — but the way he went about it at first did cause his friends who were dealing with a world of hurt conflict and didn’t come across as a listening ear. He told Maryam he didn’t care about her, saying that she has tons of other people who would worry about her feelings. Now he took that conversation into the public sphere, which makes it very difficult for me (I hate being between my wife and my friend in public).
I chose a different path: to take a week off to reflect what had happened and also to listen to other people’s voices and to help my friends (and family) deal.
I’m still hurt by the events, though and Maryam has learned some harsh lessons (including one today with Dave’s post — be careful about talking with friends who have blogs).
Scobleizer 
Dave Winer doesn’t care about other people’s feelings.
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I don’t really follow the blogosphere as close as others, so I’m out of the loop in terms of what’s going on.
My personal observation is this: Dave Winer isn’t a tech blogger. Period. He’s someone who likes to rant about politics, and about things he doesn’t like. I can’t stand people bellyaching over just about everything that happens in life, so I’ve deleted his blog from my feed and never looked back.
Some people are just too involved with blogging.
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Dave Winer doesn’t care about other people’s feelings.
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I don’t really follow the blogosphere as close as others, so I’m out of the loop in terms of what’s going on.
My personal observation is this: Dave Winer isn’t a tech blogger. Period. He’s someone who likes to rant about politics, and about things he doesn’t like. I can’t stand people bellyaching over just about everything that happens in life, so I’ve deleted his blog from my feed and never looked back.
Some people are just too involved with blogging.
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Dude, this is the danger about people whose lives revolve around their blogs. They don’t have any discretion about what they post.
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Dude, this is the danger about people whose lives revolve around their blogs. They don’t have any discretion about what they post.
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Robert have you ever thought that you’re demeaning Maryam by letting her fight her own battles, make her comments.
I found this post to be terribly demeaning to her.
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Robert have you ever thought that you’re demeaning Maryam by letting her fight her own battles, make her comments.
I found this post to be terribly demeaning to her.
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Sorry, by _not_ letting her fight her own battles…
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Sorry, by _not_ letting her fight her own battles…
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Isn’t this what that post by you on blog standards was about? O’Rielly or what ever his name is suggests a kinder gentler world?
I have no idea what the issues are here. I must not have been following some thread.
Anyway, happy Easter! I hope everyone feels better soon.
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Isn’t this what that post by you on blog standards was about? O’Rielly or what ever his name is suggests a kinder gentler world?
I have no idea what the issues are here. I must not have been following some thread.
Anyway, happy Easter! I hope everyone feels better soon.
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The code of conduct is very useless Robert. Also, you said yourself you are a very public person and you will blog about everything that happens in the open. Not to take sides, this looks like it could get ugly, but did you and Maryame assume David was different?
Dave, imho, in the past has shown that his is a very analytical machine who can compute the worth of something very quickly. It’s tough when you combine this engine with personal friendship because there is no clearly defined line. He’s trying to compute his brains realization that this code of conduct is useless and this is overiding his friendship for anyone, you folks are calling him out on what’s his charm has been all along.
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The code of conduct is very useless Robert. Also, you said yourself you are a very public person and you will blog about everything that happens in the open. Not to take sides, this looks like it could get ugly, but did you and Maryame assume David was different?
Dave, imho, in the past has shown that his is a very analytical machine who can compute the worth of something very quickly. It’s tough when you combine this engine with personal friendship because there is no clearly defined line. He’s trying to compute his brains realization that this code of conduct is useless and this is overiding his friendship for anyone, you folks are calling him out on what’s his charm has been all along.
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Jason: Maryam talked with Dave during a very emotional state and was calling him as a friend. She did not write about the conversation.
She didn’t even write about the Kathy Sierra situation, or her own role in it for several days afterward (she had some very sexist and racist things written about her which was posted on the blog that were owned by the four people in question, or at least one of them).
So, this was a private conversation between friends — one of which was very emotional and trying to lash out at the person who wrote that stuff about her.
Dave has been an awesome friend to me, both personally and professionally, this whole thing makes me sad…
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Jason: Maryam talked with Dave during a very emotional state and was calling him as a friend. She did not write about the conversation.
She didn’t even write about the Kathy Sierra situation, or her own role in it for several days afterward (she had some very sexist and racist things written about her which was posted on the blog that were owned by the four people in question, or at least one of them).
So, this was a private conversation between friends — one of which was very emotional and trying to lash out at the person who wrote that stuff about her.
Dave has been an awesome friend to me, both personally and professionally, this whole thing makes me sad…
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Jason: yeah, +I+ live by those rules. Maryam doesn’t, though.
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Jason: yeah, +I+ live by those rules. Maryam doesn’t, though.
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Robert, good luck to all of you guys. I thought you both lived by those rules. These situations are tough. I think you both give strenth to the trolls by acknowledging they exist. Thus a badget against a troll serves to attract one.
If I could be useful at all, I would just have everyone get back to their roots. But don’t pay attention to these people, we live in a safe nation, be brave, a threat should be passed on to law enforcement but we need no badge. Robert, you among few really turned me on to blogging, and it was your sense of joy about technology that I felt. Perhaps it’s the cold weather or something but I’ve not felt that excitement coming from you lately. I feel you say things you don’t feel to be a part of something you are not, I don’t know what it is, I haven’t put my finger on it.
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Robert, good luck to all of you guys. I thought you both lived by those rules. These situations are tough. I think you both give strenth to the trolls by acknowledging they exist. Thus a badget against a troll serves to attract one.
If I could be useful at all, I would just have everyone get back to their roots. But don’t pay attention to these people, we live in a safe nation, be brave, a threat should be passed on to law enforcement but we need no badge. Robert, you among few really turned me on to blogging, and it was your sense of joy about technology that I felt. Perhaps it’s the cold weather or something but I’ve not felt that excitement coming from you lately. I feel you say things you don’t feel to be a part of something you are not, I don’t know what it is, I haven’t put my finger on it.
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DAVE IS NOT A FRIEND PERIOD, OF YOUR WIFE NOR TO YOU FOR THAT MATTER. BECAUSE IF HE WAS, MAYBE THEN HE WOULD HAVE SHOWED SOME RESPECT. THE NEVER OF THAT GEEK, HE SHOULD BE SMACK WITH A POCKET PROTECTOR. AND REALLY YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE A FRIEND TO SHOW RESPECT. START WATCHING THE SOPRANOS FOR A LESSON IN RESPECT AND CODE OF HONOR BECAUSE YOUR AVERAGE GEEK SURE DOESN’T
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DAVE IS NOT A FRIEND PERIOD, OF YOUR WIFE NOR TO YOU FOR THAT MATTER. BECAUSE IF HE WAS, MAYBE THEN HE WOULD HAVE SHOWED SOME RESPECT. THE NEVER OF THAT GEEK, HE SHOULD BE SMACK WITH A POCKET PROTECTOR. AND REALLY YOU DON’T HAVE TO BE A FRIEND TO SHOW RESPECT. START WATCHING THE SOPRANOS FOR A LESSON IN RESPECT AND CODE OF HONOR BECAUSE YOUR AVERAGE GEEK SURE DOESN’T
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Contrary to your wife’s generalization, not everyone’s first reaction, upon being punched, is to punch back.
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Contrary to your wife’s generalization, not everyone’s first reaction, upon being punched, is to punch back.
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Winer appears to have the unfortunate ability to alienate even those who are friends and allies.
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Winer appears to have the unfortunate ability to alienate even those who are friends and allies.
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Contrary to your wife’s generalization, not everyone’s first reaction, upon being punched, is to punch back.
And you’re telling Robert this…why? Maryam has a blog, she takes comments, why not tell her this?
Alijah…
Caps Lock is only your friend when it’s not enabled.
Jason: Maryam talked with Dave during a very emotional state and was calling him as a friend. She did not write about the conversation.
Robert, everything in Dave’s life is going to go on that blog at some point. If you think otherwise, or want it to be otherwise, get it in writing. That blog is, literally, his life. Why would he keep something off it, especially if it let him make some greater point? He lives his life online, or damned close to it. Friendship is going to lose to that. So is, evidently, basic humanity.
Robert have you ever thought that you’re demeaning Maryam by (not) letting her fight her own battles, make her comments.
I found this post to be terribly demeaning to her.
Um…it’s what a lot of people do when they see people they care about being hurt. They defend them, and they don’t ask permission. That’s not the same, on any level as saying that Maryam can’t fight her own battles. It’s just saying that when she does, she’s not alone.
Is it demeaning when a guy, seeing a male friend of his getting the crap kicked out of him by someone else, goes to that friend’s defense? No, and I’ll *guarantee* you’d not ever say that. The “guy” term for it is called “being a good wingman”. You see someone you care about getting attacked, you go help. If they don’t need the help, then they can say “Thanks dude, but I got this.” Either way, it’s not demeaning just to come to someone’s defense. It’s human.
I don’t always agree with Robert, but on this? Oh hell no, he’s not demeaning Maryam at all. Like he could.
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Contrary to your wife’s generalization, not everyone’s first reaction, upon being punched, is to punch back.
And you’re telling Robert this…why? Maryam has a blog, she takes comments, why not tell her this?
Alijah…
Caps Lock is only your friend when it’s not enabled.
Jason: Maryam talked with Dave during a very emotional state and was calling him as a friend. She did not write about the conversation.
Robert, everything in Dave’s life is going to go on that blog at some point. If you think otherwise, or want it to be otherwise, get it in writing. That blog is, literally, his life. Why would he keep something off it, especially if it let him make some greater point? He lives his life online, or damned close to it. Friendship is going to lose to that. So is, evidently, basic humanity.
Robert have you ever thought that you’re demeaning Maryam by (not) letting her fight her own battles, make her comments.
I found this post to be terribly demeaning to her.
Um…it’s what a lot of people do when they see people they care about being hurt. They defend them, and they don’t ask permission. That’s not the same, on any level as saying that Maryam can’t fight her own battles. It’s just saying that when she does, she’s not alone.
Is it demeaning when a guy, seeing a male friend of his getting the crap kicked out of him by someone else, goes to that friend’s defense? No, and I’ll *guarantee* you’d not ever say that. The “guy” term for it is called “being a good wingman”. You see someone you care about getting attacked, you go help. If they don’t need the help, then they can say “Thanks dude, but I got this.” Either way, it’s not demeaning just to come to someone’s defense. It’s human.
I don’t always agree with Robert, but on this? Oh hell no, he’s not demeaning Maryam at all. Like he could.
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Jason #10: you’re astute. I’ve had a lot more fun lately over on Twitter and doing my video show and reading feeds. Why? Cause no matter what I write here I get attacked. Usually from several different directions. But, I’m an ornery guy and will find a way to either make this fun or go off and do something else that’ll add value to people’s lives.
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Jason #10: you’re astute. I’ve had a lot more fun lately over on Twitter and doing my video show and reading feeds. Why? Cause no matter what I write here I get attacked. Usually from several different directions. But, I’m an ornery guy and will find a way to either make this fun or go off and do something else that’ll add value to people’s lives.
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John, it is when it’s a conversation between Maryam and Dave Winer. Robert didn’t even check first to see if Maryam minded him responding — he just did it.
He’s also telling us how she felt, what she did, how she did it — not giving her a chance to respond on her own, first.
This isn’t much different than that couple where no matter what you ask the wife, the husband answers. It may be ‘well intentioned’ but it is also demeaning.
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John, it is when it’s a conversation between Maryam and Dave Winer. Robert didn’t even check first to see if Maryam minded him responding — he just did it.
He’s also telling us how she felt, what she did, how she did it — not giving her a chance to respond on her own, first.
This isn’t much different than that couple where no matter what you ask the wife, the husband answers. It may be ‘well intentioned’ but it is also demeaning.
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I showed it to her as soon as I posted and she didn’t mind at all. We had talked about that conversation many times since it happened, so I felt pretty safe in talking about it in public and felt pretty good that I’d accurately present her side of the story.
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I showed it to her as soon as I posted and she didn’t mind at all. We had talked about that conversation many times since it happened, so I felt pretty safe in talking about it in public and felt pretty good that I’d accurately present her side of the story.
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Well Scoble,
Your job and hers closely blur the line between friendship and business. That’s one of the reasons why your job is not desirable. You should be able to sit back in a black office, with the door shut and do your work, without the public ever having anything to do with it. Marketing included.
When you are out in the public eye like this, people assume you want everything made public.
In case you haven’t realized this yet, I am trying to get as many Google link ins and redirects as humanly possible to make sure people see our new service.
That aside, truly interesting stuff, very.
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Well Scoble,
Your job and hers closely blur the line between friendship and business. That’s one of the reasons why your job is not desirable. You should be able to sit back in a black office, with the door shut and do your work, without the public ever having anything to do with it. Marketing included.
When you are out in the public eye like this, people assume you want everything made public.
In case you haven’t realized this yet, I am trying to get as many Google link ins and redirects as humanly possible to make sure people see our new service.
That aside, truly interesting stuff, very.
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JOHN C WELCH – UR SIMPLE, “(she hasn’t yet seen Dave’s post this morning, I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it).” SO WHY COMMENT OVER THERE WHERE SHE HAS NOT POSTED SINCE LAST WEEK. I THINK I HAVE BEEN HEARD QUITE CLEARLY RIGHT HERE. THX U XXX MUCH
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JOHN C WELCH – UR SIMPLE, “(she hasn’t yet seen Dave’s post this morning, I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it).” SO WHY COMMENT OVER THERE WHERE SHE HAS NOT POSTED SINCE LAST WEEK. I THINK I HAVE BEEN HEARD QUITE CLEARLY RIGHT HERE. THX U XXX MUCH
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SORRY YOU’RE NOT TALKING TO ME. I STAND CORRECTED BUT I STAND ON CAP LOCK SO DEAL WITH IT. SORRY ROBERT
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SORRY YOU’RE NOT TALKING TO ME. I STAND CORRECTED BUT I STAND ON CAP LOCK SO DEAL WITH IT. SORRY ROBERT
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John, it is when it’s a conversation between Maryam and Dave Winer. Robert didn’t even check first to see if Maryam minded him responding — he just did it.
You seem to be speaking authoritatively here on the thoughts of two people who aren’t you. That’s pretty cool, I mean, you being telepathic and all. Snark aside, so? That’s quite often what people who are friends or more of someone else do. They defend them. They don’t wait for an okay. You may have heard of the concept.
He’s also telling us how she felt, what she did, how she did it — not giving her a chance to respond on her own, first.
Well, let’s see. Hmm…the person who lives with Maryam, sleeps with her, eats with her, is having a kid with her, is as close to her as it is possible to be is commenting on her state of mind. Wow, how unheard of is that? That’s not demeaning at all. Again, that’s just human. You mean to say you NEVER EVER talk about how someone close to you feels on something without getting permission from them first? Somehow, I think you’re going to have a tough time proving that one. Note that he isn’t preventing her from saying anything from her POV, he’s simply speaking from his. There is a difference, right?
This isn’t much different than that couple where no matter what you ask the wife, the husband answers. It may be ‘well intentioned’ but it is also demeaning.
Oh dear lord, where’s Susan Powter when I need her? It’s not the same without that foghorn voice bellowing “STOP THE INSANITY”. How in the name of Dog do you jump from what Robert says about what Maryam was thinking to him not letting her talk, and answering for her? What, you think that because he spoke, she’s not allowed to? She’s got a gag order now? Here’s one…maybe, just maybe, it’s possible for more than one person to speak about the same incident, from different POVs, and have it not be a way of shutting the other person up, or demeaning them. Maybe, and this is even crazier, it’s possible for someone who knows someone really well to comment on their state of mind during said incident, and have that not be the final word.
I know I’m just being a big silly-head here, but maybe Robert is able to talk about Maryam, and vice – versa, without it being an issue of demeaning each other.
Yes, yes, I know, you’ll quickly return with some “witty” reply about how I’m wrong, and how Robert is unknowingly suppressing Maryam and keeping her down by not allowing her to be the only voice on this.
Of course, from another POV, your way of doing things could be interpreted as “letting her twist in the wind”, but that can’t be it. There’s no way that you’re not the ultimate and only right POV on this, is there. Nope, not at all.
Alijah…I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were an OMGWTFBBQL33TG@M3Z0R!!!111. Disregard any comments about caps lock or communicating in a rational fashion.
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John, it is when it’s a conversation between Maryam and Dave Winer. Robert didn’t even check first to see if Maryam minded him responding — he just did it.
You seem to be speaking authoritatively here on the thoughts of two people who aren’t you. That’s pretty cool, I mean, you being telepathic and all. Snark aside, so? That’s quite often what people who are friends or more of someone else do. They defend them. They don’t wait for an okay. You may have heard of the concept.
He’s also telling us how she felt, what she did, how she did it — not giving her a chance to respond on her own, first.
Well, let’s see. Hmm…the person who lives with Maryam, sleeps with her, eats with her, is having a kid with her, is as close to her as it is possible to be is commenting on her state of mind. Wow, how unheard of is that? That’s not demeaning at all. Again, that’s just human. You mean to say you NEVER EVER talk about how someone close to you feels on something without getting permission from them first? Somehow, I think you’re going to have a tough time proving that one. Note that he isn’t preventing her from saying anything from her POV, he’s simply speaking from his. There is a difference, right?
This isn’t much different than that couple where no matter what you ask the wife, the husband answers. It may be ‘well intentioned’ but it is also demeaning.
Oh dear lord, where’s Susan Powter when I need her? It’s not the same without that foghorn voice bellowing “STOP THE INSANITY”. How in the name of Dog do you jump from what Robert says about what Maryam was thinking to him not letting her talk, and answering for her? What, you think that because he spoke, she’s not allowed to? She’s got a gag order now? Here’s one…maybe, just maybe, it’s possible for more than one person to speak about the same incident, from different POVs, and have it not be a way of shutting the other person up, or demeaning them. Maybe, and this is even crazier, it’s possible for someone who knows someone really well to comment on their state of mind during said incident, and have that not be the final word.
I know I’m just being a big silly-head here, but maybe Robert is able to talk about Maryam, and vice – versa, without it being an issue of demeaning each other.
Yes, yes, I know, you’ll quickly return with some “witty” reply about how I’m wrong, and how Robert is unknowingly suppressing Maryam and keeping her down by not allowing her to be the only voice on this.
Of course, from another POV, your way of doing things could be interpreted as “letting her twist in the wind”, but that can’t be it. There’s no way that you’re not the ultimate and only right POV on this, is there. Nope, not at all.
Alijah…I’m sorry, I didn’t realize you were an OMGWTFBBQL33TG@M3Z0R!!!111. Disregard any comments about caps lock or communicating in a rational fashion.
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That whole melee between you and Rory for example. People assume you’re just trying to drive traffic. Perhaps Dave thought the same.
For instance, even now, you say you are upset at the publication, yet you are linking to it and getting even more people to read it that may not have otherwise.
I published a lot on C9 when I did the whole Beer thing over there, but I never published the real stuff. At one point everybody thought myspace was going to sue over sitespaces with some form letter C&D. It was mostly to drive traffic.
I now see that there are way better ways to make money than to be an internet whore, and I think Red Hat and IBM had a lot to do with me waking up to that.
Even right now as I linkwhore for visits to our website, I think to myself, and I writing this post to linkbait or am I writing it for another reason.
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That whole melee between you and Rory for example. People assume you’re just trying to drive traffic. Perhaps Dave thought the same.
For instance, even now, you say you are upset at the publication, yet you are linking to it and getting even more people to read it that may not have otherwise.
I published a lot on C9 when I did the whole Beer thing over there, but I never published the real stuff. At one point everybody thought myspace was going to sue over sitespaces with some form letter C&D. It was mostly to drive traffic.
I now see that there are way better ways to make money than to be an internet whore, and I think Red Hat and IBM had a lot to do with me waking up to that.
Even right now as I linkwhore for visits to our website, I think to myself, and I writing this post to linkbait or am I writing it for another reason.
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I find myself in the curious position of DEFENDING Dave Winer ( not that he asked me to, nor that he really needs it, like he’s said himself, he’s a big boy ). But c’mon Bob, a friends “first reaction” isn’t ( and frankly, why should it be ) to say “how can I help ?”, a friend, a REAL friend, won’t serve up platitudinally (oh hell, don’t get on my case because it’s not an O.E.D. word, get real ) PC response. A REAL friend remains REAL with you. Yes, this is about your wife, and her feelings are indeed her own. And while she has the right to feel them if she so wishes, who says she might not either be wrong in how she feels, or ( more importantly ) WHY she feels the way she feels.
And as for blogging “private conversations”, Jumping Jehosephat ! Isn’t that the reality of blogging ? No stone left unturned, no rock to hide behind, no undisclosed bit of information. Everyone’s out touting this whole “collective reasoning” hoo-ha about this “new era” of the web, all the “share what you think the collective will reason it out”, but they feel compelled to bemoan when it doesn’t work in their favor.
I don’t think Dave’s response, at least looking at what he wrote up was necessarily ill advised. And frankly, a REAL friend ( we’re back to that definition again ) won’t always necessarily agree with you. What ? You ALWAYS agree with your wife’s point, Oh great Scobleizer ? Of course you don’t. I’m sure she doesn’t agree with all of your points of view all the time too. That’s LIFE.
It sounds to me like everyone’s decided to “be human” in all this exchange about the “mean kids”, O’Reilly and et.al. ( yes, I know that’s not how you use, quit nit-picking ) are just that, simply being “human”. For all the intellentia will tell you that Web 2.0 will “change democratization” it’s plain to see that they have yet again grossly underestimated the “being human” effect.
I’m glad your wife is feeling better about the whole thing now, but frankly, I don’t think how Dave responded was necessarily out of line. Now, if she explicitly ASKED that their conversation be private, then, there’s a bone to pick at. But since neither side has expressed that that little tidbit was explicitly stated in their conversation….what did you expect ? How many times did YOUR parents tell you that growing up, when you thought things were going to go your way when you ASSUMED something ?
You’re all adults. Just remember feelings and adults should only be mixed in moderation.
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I find myself in the curious position of DEFENDING Dave Winer ( not that he asked me to, nor that he really needs it, like he’s said himself, he’s a big boy ). But c’mon Bob, a friends “first reaction” isn’t ( and frankly, why should it be ) to say “how can I help ?”, a friend, a REAL friend, won’t serve up platitudinally (oh hell, don’t get on my case because it’s not an O.E.D. word, get real ) PC response. A REAL friend remains REAL with you. Yes, this is about your wife, and her feelings are indeed her own. And while she has the right to feel them if she so wishes, who says she might not either be wrong in how she feels, or ( more importantly ) WHY she feels the way she feels.
And as for blogging “private conversations”, Jumping Jehosephat ! Isn’t that the reality of blogging ? No stone left unturned, no rock to hide behind, no undisclosed bit of information. Everyone’s out touting this whole “collective reasoning” hoo-ha about this “new era” of the web, all the “share what you think the collective will reason it out”, but they feel compelled to bemoan when it doesn’t work in their favor.
I don’t think Dave’s response, at least looking at what he wrote up was necessarily ill advised. And frankly, a REAL friend ( we’re back to that definition again ) won’t always necessarily agree with you. What ? You ALWAYS agree with your wife’s point, Oh great Scobleizer ? Of course you don’t. I’m sure she doesn’t agree with all of your points of view all the time too. That’s LIFE.
It sounds to me like everyone’s decided to “be human” in all this exchange about the “mean kids”, O’Reilly and et.al. ( yes, I know that’s not how you use, quit nit-picking ) are just that, simply being “human”. For all the intellentia will tell you that Web 2.0 will “change democratization” it’s plain to see that they have yet again grossly underestimated the “being human” effect.
I’m glad your wife is feeling better about the whole thing now, but frankly, I don’t think how Dave responded was necessarily out of line. Now, if she explicitly ASKED that their conversation be private, then, there’s a bone to pick at. But since neither side has expressed that that little tidbit was explicitly stated in their conversation….what did you expect ? How many times did YOUR parents tell you that growing up, when you thought things were going to go your way when you ASSUMED something ?
You’re all adults. Just remember feelings and adults should only be mixed in moderation.
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John, I pulled my interpretation from this:
“I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it.”
That’s how I magically inferred that Robert didn’t discuss his post with Maryam before posting it. Regardless of how close he is to Maryam, and how much he loves her, this was a discussion between Dave Winer and Maryam. It would have been more thoughtful to either review the post with Maryam before posting it, or even let Maryam have first crack.
I think we’re at an age where women can speak for ourselves, aren’t we?
And you’re indulging in considerably hyperbole. I did not mention suppression or that Robert should let her twist in the wind: just that we’re of an age where husbands shouldn’t automatically respond for their wives in issues where they are not specifically involved. At least, not without an “Eh, dear, do you mind?” first.
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John, I pulled my interpretation from this:
“I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it.”
That’s how I magically inferred that Robert didn’t discuss his post with Maryam before posting it. Regardless of how close he is to Maryam, and how much he loves her, this was a discussion between Dave Winer and Maryam. It would have been more thoughtful to either review the post with Maryam before posting it, or even let Maryam have first crack.
I think we’re at an age where women can speak for ourselves, aren’t we?
And you’re indulging in considerably hyperbole. I did not mention suppression or that Robert should let her twist in the wind: just that we’re of an age where husbands shouldn’t automatically respond for their wives in issues where they are not specifically involved. At least, not without an “Eh, dear, do you mind?” first.
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I think civility is critical in personal matters as well as on the web. I think transparency is very important too.
How do bloggers that work for corporate interests – and against the interests of consumers – deal with the conflicts of interest that arise when they delete comments from consumers complaining about corporate policy or exposing underhanded, “viral”/astroturf marketing techniques. Is it appropriate for a blogger working on behalf of a corporation or its interests (esp those aligned against consumers) to claim to be independent or transparent if comments from consumer and freedom activists are deleted?
With the growth of blogging, so much “content” is becoming less and less about a conversation and more like advertising disguised as reviews or corporate shilling disguised as qualified research. This kind of behavior is the reason for the decline of civility, the news media and of journalism in general. When the original message is attacked, the comments are deleted and the blogger continues to upsell an anti-American message as if they are independent parties. There’s a real intellectual dishonesty being sold by lots of A-list bloggers which is what is causing the backlash from readers and commenters.
While death threats are always inappropriate, it is also inappropriate for marketers to delete comments which disagree with their dishonest viewpoints if they do not take care to explain their connections to the company or product they are discussing. A blog is not a neat, finished advertising product. If you’re going to advertise in a blog, you better be prepared for false, inaccurate, or anti-consumer stances to be rejected. Deleting these comments will only raise the ire of those trying to take part in the conversation.
The web has always been about heated arguments. The problem is that this new class of bloggers are trying to turn the conversational medium into an advertising medium without appropriately disclosing their viewpoint as advertising or propaganda. Commenters are angry when their comments are erased because, face it, these bloggers are co-opting our turf – not the other way around.
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I think civility is critical in personal matters as well as on the web. I think transparency is very important too.
How do bloggers that work for corporate interests – and against the interests of consumers – deal with the conflicts of interest that arise when they delete comments from consumers complaining about corporate policy or exposing underhanded, “viral”/astroturf marketing techniques. Is it appropriate for a blogger working on behalf of a corporation or its interests (esp those aligned against consumers) to claim to be independent or transparent if comments from consumer and freedom activists are deleted?
With the growth of blogging, so much “content” is becoming less and less about a conversation and more like advertising disguised as reviews or corporate shilling disguised as qualified research. This kind of behavior is the reason for the decline of civility, the news media and of journalism in general. When the original message is attacked, the comments are deleted and the blogger continues to upsell an anti-American message as if they are independent parties. There’s a real intellectual dishonesty being sold by lots of A-list bloggers which is what is causing the backlash from readers and commenters.
While death threats are always inappropriate, it is also inappropriate for marketers to delete comments which disagree with their dishonest viewpoints if they do not take care to explain their connections to the company or product they are discussing. A blog is not a neat, finished advertising product. If you’re going to advertise in a blog, you better be prepared for false, inaccurate, or anti-consumer stances to be rejected. Deleting these comments will only raise the ire of those trying to take part in the conversation.
The web has always been about heated arguments. The problem is that this new class of bloggers are trying to turn the conversational medium into an advertising medium without appropriately disclosing their viewpoint as advertising or propaganda. Commenters are angry when their comments are erased because, face it, these bloggers are co-opting our turf – not the other way around.
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John, I pulled my interpretation from this:
“I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it.”
Oh good, you actually read the post. I wasn’t sure, seeing how you’ve decided that the only possible result of it is that Maryam is demeaned, and Robert doesn’t consider her a fully functional human being.
That’s how I magically inferred that Robert didn’t discuss his post with Maryam before posting it. Regardless of how close he is to Maryam, and how much he loves her, this was a discussion between Dave Winer and Maryam. It would have been more thoughtful to either review the post with Maryam before posting it, or even let Maryam have first crack.
Sez you. No, literally. Says *you*. By the same token, are you not doing the same thing you accuse Robert of? You’re now telling him off for Maryam, assuming that Maryam would agree with you in this. I don’t know if she would or not. But either way, haven’t you, by speaking out on this here and your blog, in the update section of this post: http://burningbird.net/diversity/fight-with-me/ (Please, have the stones to name names.) But here you are, jumping in before Maryam can publicly do so. Why is it okay for *you* to engage in the same thing you’re ragging on Robert doing. What, being born cloven instead of crested gives you special consideration here?
I think we’re at an age where women can speak for ourselves, aren’t we?
Evidently, you disagree, since you seem determined to decide how Maryam should take this without giving her a chance to respond. Something about “pot” and “kettle” come to mind in this case.
And you’re indulging in considerably hyperbole. I did not mention suppression or that Robert should let her twist in the wind: just that we’re of an age where husbands shouldn’t automatically respond for their wives in issues where they are not specifically involved. At least, not without an “Eh, dear, do you mind?” first.
No, you did say that. You said he should not respond on anything concerning her without her express permission. So if he can’t get a hold of her for some reason, he should let her twist in the wind. That he should never come to her defense without not only her permission, but without telling you that he has her permission.
Because evidently, you have a need to know here. Somehow. But then, we’ve already established that you decided it’s not demeaning when YOU don’t give her a chance to answer, only when he does. I’m sure you have a very good reason why you doing it is okay. At least in your head.
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John, I pulled my interpretation from this:
“I wanted to write from the heart before she saw it.”
Oh good, you actually read the post. I wasn’t sure, seeing how you’ve decided that the only possible result of it is that Maryam is demeaned, and Robert doesn’t consider her a fully functional human being.
That’s how I magically inferred that Robert didn’t discuss his post with Maryam before posting it. Regardless of how close he is to Maryam, and how much he loves her, this was a discussion between Dave Winer and Maryam. It would have been more thoughtful to either review the post with Maryam before posting it, or even let Maryam have first crack.
Sez you. No, literally. Says *you*. By the same token, are you not doing the same thing you accuse Robert of? You’re now telling him off for Maryam, assuming that Maryam would agree with you in this. I don’t know if she would or not. But either way, haven’t you, by speaking out on this here and your blog, in the update section of this post: http://burningbird.net/diversity/fight-with-me/ (Please, have the stones to name names.) But here you are, jumping in before Maryam can publicly do so. Why is it okay for *you* to engage in the same thing you’re ragging on Robert doing. What, being born cloven instead of crested gives you special consideration here?
I think we’re at an age where women can speak for ourselves, aren’t we?
Evidently, you disagree, since you seem determined to decide how Maryam should take this without giving her a chance to respond. Something about “pot” and “kettle” come to mind in this case.
And you’re indulging in considerably hyperbole. I did not mention suppression or that Robert should let her twist in the wind: just that we’re of an age where husbands shouldn’t automatically respond for their wives in issues where they are not specifically involved. At least, not without an “Eh, dear, do you mind?” first.
No, you did say that. You said he should not respond on anything concerning her without her express permission. So if he can’t get a hold of her for some reason, he should let her twist in the wind. That he should never come to her defense without not only her permission, but without telling you that he has her permission.
Because evidently, you have a need to know here. Somehow. But then, we’ve already established that you decided it’s not demeaning when YOU don’t give her a chance to answer, only when he does. I’m sure you have a very good reason why you doing it is okay. At least in your head.
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JOHN, I HAVE GOT TO SAY, THAT YOU GOT MY BLOG ON FIRE. THANKS FOR BEING OVERLY OPINIONATED
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JOHN, I HAVE GOT TO SAY, THAT YOU GOT MY BLOG ON FIRE. THANKS FOR BEING OVERLY OPINIONATED
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I guess nobody else sees the hypocrisy in Robert blogging about a personal issue that he claims Winer blogged about?
Robert is again, nothing without eyeballs on his page.
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I guess nobody else sees the hypocrisy in Robert blogging about a personal issue that he claims Winer blogged about?
Robert is again, nothing without eyeballs on his page.
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غریب گیر آوردن؟
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غریب گیر آوردن؟
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I thought she was calling to object to something on my blog. That’s all she talked about with me. I had no idea that nasty stuff had been written about her on that site before she called, btw, and she wasn’t aware that the same site had trashed me, with humiliating sexual imagery (written by a man whose name we actually know, btw) and I never asked you or Maryam to take anything off your blog.
In all the time I’ve known you Scoble, and I’ve known you longer than you’ve been blogging, I’ve never known you to be anything less than transparent. That’s my goal too, even though I don’t always achieve it. In today’s story I felt I needed to talk about the situation with Maryam. She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing. It was also the first time Maryam has ever called me (it could be that my memory is bad, getting old, but I’m pretty sure of that). So it’s not like we talk every day and I decided to take one conversation out of context.
I thought to myself when I was listening to Maryam that friendship is not conditional on things like this. There were people who were being trashed, as I had been trashed before, they needed help, Maryam was getting plenty of support. That’s just me, I always root for the underdog. As I’ve said before I have plenty of reasons to dislike the people the mob was going after, and plenty of reasons to like Maryam and nothing changed there — but I still did the right thing then, and I want my readers to know. If that interferes with our relationship, so be it.
I think it’s something like you taking a stand that’s contrary to Ballmer when you were working for Microsoft, except of course I don’t work for you.
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I thought she was calling to object to something on my blog. That’s all she talked about with me. I had no idea that nasty stuff had been written about her on that site before she called, btw, and she wasn’t aware that the same site had trashed me, with humiliating sexual imagery (written by a man whose name we actually know, btw) and I never asked you or Maryam to take anything off your blog.
In all the time I’ve known you Scoble, and I’ve known you longer than you’ve been blogging, I’ve never known you to be anything less than transparent. That’s my goal too, even though I don’t always achieve it. In today’s story I felt I needed to talk about the situation with Maryam. She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing. It was also the first time Maryam has ever called me (it could be that my memory is bad, getting old, but I’m pretty sure of that). So it’s not like we talk every day and I decided to take one conversation out of context.
I thought to myself when I was listening to Maryam that friendship is not conditional on things like this. There were people who were being trashed, as I had been trashed before, they needed help, Maryam was getting plenty of support. That’s just me, I always root for the underdog. As I’ve said before I have plenty of reasons to dislike the people the mob was going after, and plenty of reasons to like Maryam and nothing changed there — but I still did the right thing then, and I want my readers to know. If that interferes with our relationship, so be it.
I think it’s something like you taking a stand that’s contrary to Ballmer when you were working for Microsoft, except of course I don’t work for you.
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Robert,
You should know that Dave has Maryam’s best interests.
You guys should take this off-line and talk over the events and the hurt feelings.
No one understands Dave like you do and if you criticize him openly via blog it could harm years of friendship.
Everywhere I look I seem to see people hurting or being hurt with blogs. I know I’m contributing to that state of blogs but I have reasons to want to see some people defended… I’m taking sides in that sense… because blogs shouldn’t be used to settle old scores and escalate into open warfare without some public debate.
So, call Dave again and get maryam to talk with him. He cares about you both.
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Robert,
You should know that Dave has Maryam’s best interests.
You guys should take this off-line and talk over the events and the hurt feelings.
No one understands Dave like you do and if you criticize him openly via blog it could harm years of friendship.
Everywhere I look I seem to see people hurting or being hurt with blogs. I know I’m contributing to that state of blogs but I have reasons to want to see some people defended… I’m taking sides in that sense… because blogs shouldn’t be used to settle old scores and escalate into open warfare without some public debate.
So, call Dave again and get maryam to talk with him. He cares about you both.
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Robert, I never saw the hurtfully posts, but I think it’s obvious they were out to hurt you by insulting Maryam and they must be enjoying all this.
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Shelley: We might be at an age when women can defend themselves.
When did we pass the age where we could stand up for our friends/family/people?
Robert: You and Maryam are very transparent about your life on your blogs (more than usual people).
Maybe the internet is really a bad neighbourhood.
– you could try hanging out in the good neighbourhood (which means we need O’Reily’s code)
– or you could try to avoid the bad neighbourhood (save the private stuff for your friends (those who don’t have blogs 😉 ))
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Robert, I never saw the hurtfully posts, but I think it’s obvious they were out to hurt you by insulting Maryam and they must be enjoying all this.
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Shelley: We might be at an age when women can defend themselves.
When did we pass the age where we could stand up for our friends/family/people?
Robert: You and Maryam are very transparent about your life on your blogs (more than usual people).
Maybe the internet is really a bad neighbourhood.
– you could try hanging out in the good neighbourhood (which means we need O’Reily’s code)
– or you could try to avoid the bad neighbourhood (save the private stuff for your friends (those who don’t have blogs 😉 ))
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Just read the rest of the posts here. You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble! 🙂
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Scoble,
Keep on posting, i love your enthusiasm, i love your honesty, don’t let a minority get you down!
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Just read the rest of the posts here. You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble! 🙂
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Scoble,
Keep on posting, i love your enthusiasm, i love your honesty, don’t let a minority get you down!
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I’m telling him about me, John. I found Robert’s actions to be demeaning. Maryam may or may not agree, that’s for Maryam to decide.
And I did not say for him not to respond on anything related to Maryam. But this was a conversation that Maryam had with another.
This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?
If someone wrote a general comment on Maryam, well then that’s a different ball game. But this was a response to a specific event, of which Robert was not a part originally, and discussed Maryann’s emotional response.
But we’ll have to agree to disagree. And if Maryam doesn’t mind being treated in the third person like this, it is her choice, she is an adult.
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I’m telling him about me, John. I found Robert’s actions to be demeaning. Maryam may or may not agree, that’s for Maryam to decide.
And I did not say for him not to respond on anything related to Maryam. But this was a conversation that Maryam had with another.
This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?
If someone wrote a general comment on Maryam, well then that’s a different ball game. But this was a response to a specific event, of which Robert was not a part originally, and discussed Maryann’s emotional response.
But we’ll have to agree to disagree. And if Maryam doesn’t mind being treated in the third person like this, it is her choice, she is an adult.
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I went through this 8-9 years ago. My partner and I are the only two people to ever be threatened with expulsion from the Apache forum. I remember in one day there were over a 100 email responses to the pair of us. He got very heated and very nasty. In fact I’d say we’re still person non grata.
Fast forward 7 years to the blogsphere and I see a lot of the same things happening. Except people aren’t used to dealing with the nonsense. And that’s all it really is, total nonsense. However it hurts. We’re human. How can it not.
What’s really needed is a code of Respect. We need to remember that first and foremost we are human beings and we need to learn to respect each other. Be hard on the problem and stop being hard on each other. It’s not healthy.
I’m sorry for your wife, she’s a good person, and those who care will – those who don’t never will, so you just have to move on.
Nothing more to say other than give her a hug from me.
Cheers,
Peter
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I went through this 8-9 years ago. My partner and I are the only two people to ever be threatened with expulsion from the Apache forum. I remember in one day there were over a 100 email responses to the pair of us. He got very heated and very nasty. In fact I’d say we’re still person non grata.
Fast forward 7 years to the blogsphere and I see a lot of the same things happening. Except people aren’t used to dealing with the nonsense. And that’s all it really is, total nonsense. However it hurts. We’re human. How can it not.
What’s really needed is a code of Respect. We need to remember that first and foremost we are human beings and we need to learn to respect each other. Be hard on the problem and stop being hard on each other. It’s not healthy.
I’m sorry for your wife, she’s a good person, and those who care will – those who don’t never will, so you just have to move on.
Nothing more to say other than give her a hug from me.
Cheers,
Peter
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Dave: >I thought to myself when I was listening to Maryam that friendship is not conditional on things like this.
You’re right.
But, and I’m trying to keep other things you said to me in private confidential…
You didn’t acknowledge on your blog or in this conversation that Maryam had been severely hurt (in fact, I don’t remember you ever acknowledging the awful speech against either Kathy Sierra or Maryam — which communicated to Maryam that all you cared about were the four people the mob was picking on. Noble, but they weren’t your personal friends, as you, yourself, noted on your blog). The fact that she was crying when she was talking with you on the phone should have been a tipoff there. Sometimes when people are hit they get emotional and sometimes, yes, they even are wrong.
But your words did double the hurt. You didn’t even, at that time, understand just what had been written about Maryam and by whom (as you just acknowledged). You just took sides without knowing all the facts and you wouldn’t bother understanding just why Maryam was so pissed off — you could have listened and then suggested some things that SHE could have done. Instead you just told her off and, then, used that conversation to make another point (throwing her under the bus to make a point against Tim O’Reilly). That is just as bad a behavior as the mob’s behavior who went after everyone involved as if THEY knew all the facts.
There are some conversations that happen at the heat of the moment that simply should remain confidential if they are between friends. This was one of them.
Shelley: I was a part of this whole event. I was two feet from Maryam when she called Dave and had just talked with Dave myself.
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Dave: >I thought to myself when I was listening to Maryam that friendship is not conditional on things like this.
You’re right.
But, and I’m trying to keep other things you said to me in private confidential…
You didn’t acknowledge on your blog or in this conversation that Maryam had been severely hurt (in fact, I don’t remember you ever acknowledging the awful speech against either Kathy Sierra or Maryam — which communicated to Maryam that all you cared about were the four people the mob was picking on. Noble, but they weren’t your personal friends, as you, yourself, noted on your blog). The fact that she was crying when she was talking with you on the phone should have been a tipoff there. Sometimes when people are hit they get emotional and sometimes, yes, they even are wrong.
But your words did double the hurt. You didn’t even, at that time, understand just what had been written about Maryam and by whom (as you just acknowledged). You just took sides without knowing all the facts and you wouldn’t bother understanding just why Maryam was so pissed off — you could have listened and then suggested some things that SHE could have done. Instead you just told her off and, then, used that conversation to make another point (throwing her under the bus to make a point against Tim O’Reilly). That is just as bad a behavior as the mob’s behavior who went after everyone involved as if THEY knew all the facts.
There are some conversations that happen at the heat of the moment that simply should remain confidential if they are between friends. This was one of them.
Shelley: I was a part of this whole event. I was two feet from Maryam when she called Dave and had just talked with Dave myself.
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I think I’m leaning more towards Dave on this one…
It all comes down to whether or not one is willing to let their objectivity be swayed when the issue at hand involves a family member or friend.
What were the alternatives, anyway? If Dave condemned one side in private and posted a completely different perspective, would he not have been called a hypocrite? Would Maryam not be more pissed off because he “lied” to her? Or should Dave had kept his true opinion locked away?
Sympathy and compassion are very dangerous emotions that can cloud judgment.
Reminds me of the Bill O’Reilly and Geraldo Rivera debate, actually: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tLPuGuaZTx8
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I think I’m leaning more towards Dave on this one…
It all comes down to whether or not one is willing to let their objectivity be swayed when the issue at hand involves a family member or friend.
What were the alternatives, anyway? If Dave condemned one side in private and posted a completely different perspective, would he not have been called a hypocrite? Would Maryam not be more pissed off because he “lied” to her? Or should Dave had kept his true opinion locked away?
Sympathy and compassion are very dangerous emotions that can cloud judgment.
Reminds me of the Bill O’Reilly and Geraldo Rivera debate, actually: http://youtube.com/watch?v=tLPuGuaZTx8
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What are you people, fifteen years old? All this reads like some kind of high-school drama played out for the public to see. Get over yourselves, no one cares; there’s lots more important issues out there that don’t revolve around some little tiff in some retarded internet subculture.
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What are you people, fifteen years old? All this reads like some kind of high-school drama played out for the public to see. Get over yourselves, no one cares; there’s lots more important issues out there that don’t revolve around some little tiff in some retarded internet subculture.
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#39: I love how all of this is like “ultimate fight club” and how there needs to be sides picked. That’s part of what leads to this kind of stuff.
Anyway, Dave should have spoken out against the vile speech against Kathy and Maryam (supported his friend) AND tried to calm down the mob (supported reason). What he did was support only reason, but not his friend. Which, makes him pretty hard to deal with on a human level sometimes.
That’s what Maryam was trying to get across. But she didn’t do a good job. Me neither.
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#39: I love how all of this is like “ultimate fight club” and how there needs to be sides picked. That’s part of what leads to this kind of stuff.
Anyway, Dave should have spoken out against the vile speech against Kathy and Maryam (supported his friend) AND tried to calm down the mob (supported reason). What he did was support only reason, but not his friend. Which, makes him pretty hard to deal with on a human level sometimes.
That’s what Maryam was trying to get across. But she didn’t do a good job. Me neither.
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Aww man.
This is a shame.
It’s a shame that people are human and make mistakes and are insensitive. It’s a shame that an act of insensitivity can be broadcast and warped and multiplied through 30+ comments in a blog post.
What’s also a shame is that blog posts seem to only get 30+ comments when people are upset. Even geeky bloggers like drama more than they like technology.
Hang in the Robert.
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Aww man.
This is a shame.
It’s a shame that people are human and make mistakes and are insensitive. It’s a shame that an act of insensitivity can be broadcast and warped and multiplied through 30+ comments in a blog post.
What’s also a shame is that blog posts seem to only get 30+ comments when people are upset. Even geeky bloggers like drama more than they like technology.
Hang in the Robert.
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#40: if you didn’t care, why did you feel the need to call everyone involved names and leave a comment? I’m starting to agree with Dave that some of my commenters are pretty darn interesting!
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#40: if you didn’t care, why did you feel the need to call everyone involved names and leave a comment? I’m starting to agree with Dave that some of my commenters are pretty darn interesting!
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You mean be careful talking to Dave? Is just me or his posts are always hurting someone?
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You mean be careful talking to Dave? Is just me or his posts are always hurting someone?
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M Freitas: definitely don’t call him when you’re emotional, or in a state where getting quoted can be used against you.
That should hold true for any blogger, really. Treat them like journalists and make sure you understand the ground rules before you start talking.
And, yes, I’d even say the same about me, except if you’re my friend I’ll treat you as a friend first and a source to be used in my blog second. If I were to quote you during an emotional outburst I’d probably call you back when you’re calmer and ask again whether you wanted to be quoted or not.
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M Freitas: definitely don’t call him when you’re emotional, or in a state where getting quoted can be used against you.
That should hold true for any blogger, really. Treat them like journalists and make sure you understand the ground rules before you start talking.
And, yes, I’d even say the same about me, except if you’re my friend I’ll treat you as a friend first and a source to be used in my blog second. If I were to quote you during an emotional outburst I’d probably call you back when you’re calmer and ask again whether you wanted to be quoted or not.
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I’m telling him about me, John. I found Robert’s actions to be demeaning. Maryam may or may not agree, that’s for Maryam to decide.
Why am I not surprised that what you’re doing is totally different.
And I did not say for him not to respond on anything related to Maryam. But this was a conversation that Maryam had with another.
I said you’re saying that he’s never allowed to comment on anything involving Maryam, or any woman for that matter, without that person’s express, previous permission, and of course, that would require him to state same here, probably with some way of verifying it, because otherwise, he’s “demeaning them”.
This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?
Strawman much Shelley? Different situation. This wasn’t a public debate that Maryam agreed to, with the rules hashed out beforehand. Everything is not exactly the same, and I feel odd having to say this, since you’re trying to manipulate that concept to avoid the conclusion that you telling Robert he’s demeaning Maryam is just as demeaning as what you accuse him of doing. I think you’re well beyond having it both ways, and are now trying to chug from a Klein Bottle.
If someone wrote a general comment on Maryam, well then that’s a different ball game. But this was a response to a specific event, of which Robert was not a part originally, and discussed Maryann’s emotional response.
You still have yet to explain how Robert *demeaned* her by defending her. He in no way limited, nor tried to limit, explicitly or implicitly, her ability to speak for herself. In fact, outside of your head, I’ve yet to see anyone saying he *demeaned* her. He did nothing of the sort, but now that you’ve come out and boldly stated that OMGTEHSCOBLEIZERDEEEMEEEENEDHER!!!111, you’re rather stuck trying to defend it. You have fun with that.
But we’ll have to agree to disagree. And if Maryam doesn’t mind being treated in the third person like this, it is her choice, she is an adult.
It hasn’t bothered you a damned bit to treating her “like this” in the third person when it is convenient to whatever point you’re trying to make so I fail to see why it would bother you that Robert did the same thing. But obviously, he’s either not “the shelley” or not female, or not both, so he can’t do that, at least not in your world.
Yeesh.
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I’m telling him about me, John. I found Robert’s actions to be demeaning. Maryam may or may not agree, that’s for Maryam to decide.
Why am I not surprised that what you’re doing is totally different.
And I did not say for him not to respond on anything related to Maryam. But this was a conversation that Maryam had with another.
I said you’re saying that he’s never allowed to comment on anything involving Maryam, or any woman for that matter, without that person’s express, previous permission, and of course, that would require him to state same here, probably with some way of verifying it, because otherwise, he’s “demeaning them”.
This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?
Strawman much Shelley? Different situation. This wasn’t a public debate that Maryam agreed to, with the rules hashed out beforehand. Everything is not exactly the same, and I feel odd having to say this, since you’re trying to manipulate that concept to avoid the conclusion that you telling Robert he’s demeaning Maryam is just as demeaning as what you accuse him of doing. I think you’re well beyond having it both ways, and are now trying to chug from a Klein Bottle.
If someone wrote a general comment on Maryam, well then that’s a different ball game. But this was a response to a specific event, of which Robert was not a part originally, and discussed Maryann’s emotional response.
You still have yet to explain how Robert *demeaned* her by defending her. He in no way limited, nor tried to limit, explicitly or implicitly, her ability to speak for herself. In fact, outside of your head, I’ve yet to see anyone saying he *demeaned* her. He did nothing of the sort, but now that you’ve come out and boldly stated that OMGTEHSCOBLEIZERDEEEMEEEENEDHER!!!111, you’re rather stuck trying to defend it. You have fun with that.
But we’ll have to agree to disagree. And if Maryam doesn’t mind being treated in the third person like this, it is her choice, she is an adult.
It hasn’t bothered you a damned bit to treating her “like this” in the third person when it is convenient to whatever point you’re trying to make so I fail to see why it would bother you that Robert did the same thing. But obviously, he’s either not “the shelley” or not female, or not both, so he can’t do that, at least not in your world.
Yeesh.
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Robert, I commented because, unfortunately, the news sources I look at on a daily basis have become polluted with this ticky-tack back and forth posturing that resembles a student council meeting gone awry more than it does a number of intelligent, educated, well-written people, which you all are.
To the 99% of people who have read or heard about these incidents, whether from other blogs, the New York Times, or television, it just looks silly, demeaning to its participants, and childish.
I’m sorry if you feel that’s “calling names,” I’m just trying, as a person involved in both the technology and publishing fields for over a decade and who still thinks “blogosphere” is a silly word, to call it as I see it.
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Robert, I commented because, unfortunately, the news sources I look at on a daily basis have become polluted with this ticky-tack back and forth posturing that resembles a student council meeting gone awry more than it does a number of intelligent, educated, well-written people, which you all are.
To the 99% of people who have read or heard about these incidents, whether from other blogs, the New York Times, or television, it just looks silly, demeaning to its participants, and childish.
I’m sorry if you feel that’s “calling names,” I’m just trying, as a person involved in both the technology and publishing fields for over a decade and who still thinks “blogosphere” is a silly word, to call it as I see it.
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To clarify #47, second paragraph, I meant the 99% of people who are outsiders.
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John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments. 🙂
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John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments. 🙂
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To clarify #47, second paragraph, I meant the 99% of people who are outsiders.
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“#39: I love how all of this is like “ultimate fight club” and how there needs to be sides picked. That’s part of what leads to this kind of stuff.”
Hate to break it to you, but the very foundation of an opinion is to take a side. We can flip-flop and dance between various sides of issue but that tends to lead to superficiality. I’m not saying we can’t critically consider both sides of a story when forming an opinion, I’m saying that at the very end of we’re probably sit on one side of the fence or the other.
Also, in case you weren’t aware, you’re post and comments take sides.
Anyway, sometimes when you see someone going through something you’ve been through yourself, there’s a tendency to do a bit of self-reflection first…maybe even more if no one was there to support you. This statement is actually very telling – “I don’t know Kathy Sierra, but I do know and have been abused by Chris Locke, Frank Paynter and Jeanne Sessum (and quite a few other people)”
Sure, he doesn’t explicitly say he’s against the vile speech but I can infer that from the fact that he’s been on the receiving end. He really didn’t need to add “So I sympathize with Kathy and Maryam….”
Or perhaps it’s because I’m so use to knowing/expecting that Dave moves beyond lower level details quickly (friends involved or not) and speaks from a higher perspective. I dunno.
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George: when you call us all retarded, that’s going over the line of legitimate criticism (which, actually, I agree with) to name calling, which doesn’t add any light and makes it hard to take your advice seriously.
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“#39: I love how all of this is like “ultimate fight club” and how there needs to be sides picked. That’s part of what leads to this kind of stuff.”
Hate to break it to you, but the very foundation of an opinion is to take a side. We can flip-flop and dance between various sides of issue but that tends to lead to superficiality. I’m not saying we can’t critically consider both sides of a story when forming an opinion, I’m saying that at the very end of we’re probably sit on one side of the fence or the other.
Also, in case you weren’t aware, you’re post and comments take sides.
Anyway, sometimes when you see someone going through something you’ve been through yourself, there’s a tendency to do a bit of self-reflection first…maybe even more if no one was there to support you. This statement is actually very telling – “I don’t know Kathy Sierra, but I do know and have been abused by Chris Locke, Frank Paynter and Jeanne Sessum (and quite a few other people)”
Sure, he doesn’t explicitly say he’s against the vile speech but I can infer that from the fact that he’s been on the receiving end. He really didn’t need to add “So I sympathize with Kathy and Maryam….”
Or perhaps it’s because I’m so use to knowing/expecting that Dave moves beyond lower level details quickly (friends involved or not) and speaks from a higher perspective. I dunno.
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George: when you call us all retarded, that’s going over the line of legitimate criticism (which, actually, I agree with) to name calling, which doesn’t add any light and makes it hard to take your advice seriously.
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He is what he is. You can choose to be his friend or not based on your judgement of his character/personality. Telling him to change his post – good idea?
You know you could have just called him and talked about this and avoided “expert” opinions from anonymous trolls like me.
Hmmm….does Paris Hilton feel bad for all the stuff written about her?
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He is what he is. You can choose to be his friend or not based on your judgement of his character/personality. Telling him to change his post – good idea?
You know you could have just called him and talked about this and avoided “expert” opinions from anonymous trolls like me.
Hmmm….does Paris Hilton feel bad for all the stuff written about her?
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>#52 actually, Met, I’m pretty sure that celebrities do feel bad. They are human. Some, like Britney, drown it all out by partying and doing drugs. Me? I fall into my feed reader and try to pull out some good stuff in the world. Luckily most tech bloggers are ignoring all this noise.
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>#52 actually, Met, I’m pretty sure that celebrities do feel bad. They are human. Some, like Britney, drown it all out by partying and doing drugs. Me? I fall into my feed reader and try to pull out some good stuff in the world. Luckily most tech bloggers are ignoring all this noise.
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>Hate to break it to you, but the very foundation of an opinion is to take a side.
That’s true. But what I was talking bout here isn’t making an opinion. Here’s an opinion:
“Blogging guidelines aren’t good or needed.”
There, I stated my opinion.
But what I see a lot of lately is:
“Go XXXX, kick him again.”
That kind of tribalism led to the kinds of attacks Kathy Sierra saw.
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>Hate to break it to you, but the very foundation of an opinion is to take a side.
That’s true. But what I was talking bout here isn’t making an opinion. Here’s an opinion:
“Blogging guidelines aren’t good or needed.”
There, I stated my opinion.
But what I see a lot of lately is:
“Go XXXX, kick him again.”
That kind of tribalism led to the kinds of attacks Kathy Sierra saw.
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Robert:
Thanks for replying, by the way.
“Retarded” is, of course, a poor choice of words, and one I used for comedic effect rather than to make an actual point.
However, let’s look at that line again, and I’ll replace the word:
“there’s lots more important issues out there that don’t revolve around some little tiff in some insular internet subculture.”
Individuals are often smart; people, as a whole, can be remarkably dumb. Or if not dumb, unable to see a bigger picture as they become wrapped up in their own interconnectedness. Mob action would be an example. “Tempests-in-a-teapot” that happen at social clubs, companies, and in the media are another.
It’s not you, or any of the people involved in this whole thing, that I’m criticizing. Sure, I’m sure certain people were less well-behaved than others, and probably should take more of the “blame”.
But that’s really irrelevant.
What I am criticizing is that insularity, that walking-around-with-blinders on sort of mentality, that I see in these sorts of things. Look at IRC wars, USENET flame wars, heck, blowups at book club meetings.
People get all too wrapped up, too emotional, too hurt, and too angry at things that really, in the big old world out there, don’t matter. In the process they hurt themselves socially, emotionally, and sometimes professionally.
So, I guess, to wrap this up, when I used “retarded” I wasn’t trying to call you or anyone else names. Just this whole little thing.
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Robert:
Thanks for replying, by the way.
“Retarded” is, of course, a poor choice of words, and one I used for comedic effect rather than to make an actual point.
However, let’s look at that line again, and I’ll replace the word:
“there’s lots more important issues out there that don’t revolve around some little tiff in some insular internet subculture.”
Individuals are often smart; people, as a whole, can be remarkably dumb. Or if not dumb, unable to see a bigger picture as they become wrapped up in their own interconnectedness. Mob action would be an example. “Tempests-in-a-teapot” that happen at social clubs, companies, and in the media are another.
It’s not you, or any of the people involved in this whole thing, that I’m criticizing. Sure, I’m sure certain people were less well-behaved than others, and probably should take more of the “blame”.
But that’s really irrelevant.
What I am criticizing is that insularity, that walking-around-with-blinders on sort of mentality, that I see in these sorts of things. Look at IRC wars, USENET flame wars, heck, blowups at book club meetings.
People get all too wrapped up, too emotional, too hurt, and too angry at things that really, in the big old world out there, don’t matter. In the process they hurt themselves socially, emotionally, and sometimes professionally.
So, I guess, to wrap this up, when I used “retarded” I wasn’t trying to call you or anyone else names. Just this whole little thing.
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By the way, Jim Turner did — by far — the best writing on the Kathy Sierra issue. http://www.onebyonemedia.com/
He didn’t take sides. He just looked for the facts.
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By the way, Jim Turner did — by far — the best writing on the Kathy Sierra issue. http://www.onebyonemedia.com/
He didn’t take sides. He just looked for the facts.
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@30 “She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing”
With all due respect, but aren’t phone conversation between one person and another assumed to be private, even if the topic of conversation is a “public” topic? Maybe in your world every interaction you have with other humans are assumed to be public and thus show up on your blog, but most civilized people show more respect for their “friends” and don’t share private conversations with the world.
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@30 “She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing”
With all due respect, but aren’t phone conversation between one person and another assumed to be private, even if the topic of conversation is a “public” topic? Maybe in your world every interaction you have with other humans are assumed to be public and thus show up on your blog, but most civilized people show more respect for their “friends” and don’t share private conversations with the world.
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>People get all too wrapped up, too emotional, too hurt, and too angry at things that really, in the big old world out there, don’t matter.
That’s true!
You should read Maryam’s post about lashing out at the wall after she stubbed her toe the other night. Sometimes the wall is the only thing you know.
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>People get all too wrapped up, too emotional, too hurt, and too angry at things that really, in the big old world out there, don’t matter.
That’s true!
You should read Maryam’s post about lashing out at the wall after she stubbed her toe the other night. Sometimes the wall is the only thing you know.
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In reading Winer’s piece, I realize he doesn’t answer the question:
…Why?
Why defend the indefensible? Why champion the pathetic?
So he can feel above the “mob”? Like he’s not just one of us?
In doing so, forgets a very basic truth: most of the time, the majority of people agree on something because it’s _right_.
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In reading Winer’s piece, I realize he doesn’t answer the question:
…Why?
Why defend the indefensible? Why champion the pathetic?
So he can feel above the “mob”? Like he’s not just one of us?
In doing so, forgets a very basic truth: most of the time, the majority of people agree on something because it’s _right_.
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“John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments.”
Oh, don’t worry Robert. He didn’t. But thank you for your concern.
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@30 “but I still did the right thing then, and I want my readers to know. If that interferes with our relationship, so be it.”
Wow! I mean, wow! Am I to interpret from this that your blog is more important to you than any friendships you have? And geeks wonder why they are percieved as lacking social skills.
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“John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments.”
Oh, don’t worry Robert. He didn’t. But thank you for your concern.
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@30 “but I still did the right thing then, and I want my readers to know. If that interferes with our relationship, so be it.”
Wow! I mean, wow! Am I to interpret from this that your blog is more important to you than any friendships you have? And geeks wonder why they are percieved as lacking social skills.
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I’ve done that too. Everyone does.
I used to own a car. The car would break down Sometimes I’d try to fix it and skin my knuckle on something under the hood. I’d swear and bang whatever tool I had in my hand against some non-essential part of the car.
I also would get angry at other drivers for going too slow, or blocking the road, or generally acting like dumbasses. Muttering to myself in rush-hour traffic, or sometimes cutting people off when passing them.
I realized that this was pretty stupid and childish. I also realized that I live 3 blocks from a train station and a number of bus routes. So, a few years ago I sold my car and, while sometimes it’s inconvenient, my daily life is much happier as a result, although some people say things like “the bus is for poor people” or “you don’t own a car? that’s weird.”
Fortunately, I try to spend as little time as possible with people who would make comments like that, so it works out.
I genuinely hope that you folks come out of all this strong, happy, and with a good perspective on it.
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I’ve done that too. Everyone does.
I used to own a car. The car would break down Sometimes I’d try to fix it and skin my knuckle on something under the hood. I’d swear and bang whatever tool I had in my hand against some non-essential part of the car.
I also would get angry at other drivers for going too slow, or blocking the road, or generally acting like dumbasses. Muttering to myself in rush-hour traffic, or sometimes cutting people off when passing them.
I realized that this was pretty stupid and childish. I also realized that I live 3 blocks from a train station and a number of bus routes. So, a few years ago I sold my car and, while sometimes it’s inconvenient, my daily life is much happier as a result, although some people say things like “the bus is for poor people” or “you don’t own a car? that’s weird.”
Fortunately, I try to spend as little time as possible with people who would make comments like that, so it works out.
I genuinely hope that you folks come out of all this strong, happy, and with a good perspective on it.
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@36 “This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?”
Bad example, because this is something Bill Clinton would absolutely do and he wouldn’t care how it affected his wife’s campaign.
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@36 “This is no different than if Bill Clinton ran around to those who debate his wife, telling everyone how she reacted to the event–how hurt or whatever this made her. Tell me, what do you think this would do to Hillary Clinton’s presidential hopes?”
Bad example, because this is something Bill Clinton would absolutely do and he wouldn’t care how it affected his wife’s campaign.
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George: Maryam agrees with you, by the way. Here’s her post on this issue: http://maryamie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9592F3DEF41537A3!3380.entry
Grrr, I hate MSN Spaces’ URLs. Just visit here: http://maryamie.spaces.live.com/blog/
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George: Maryam agrees with you, by the way. Here’s her post on this issue: http://maryamie.spaces.live.com/blog/cns!9592F3DEF41537A3!3380.entry
Grrr, I hate MSN Spaces’ URLs. Just visit here: http://maryamie.spaces.live.com/blog/
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For goodness sake, will you all just calm down and let things cool? We’ll get over our hurts and angers soon enough but not if we keep poking into it with our blogger’s fork. Blogging sometimes heals but in situations like this.
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For goodness sake, will you all just calm down and let things cool? We’ll get over our hurts and angers soon enough but not if we keep poking into it with our blogger’s fork. Blogging sometimes heals but in situations like this.
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Over at Maryam’s weblog:
“It doesn’t seem to matter whether you are right or wrong, when you take a personal matter public and you get into a public fight, nobody seems to win. In public fights, neither side looks good and the whole thing becomes a train wreck for people to watch. I don’t like to get into public fights. When I look back at a few blog posts I have made in the past when I was angry and emotional, I realize that my best qualities are certainly not shinning through and I am not at my most articulate. Even worse, with my anger and state of emotions, I am not adding much value to the world. ”
The whole post was a model of dignity and maturity. Frankly next time Robert? Let Maryam speak first.
No weblog is worth a friend.
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Over at Maryam’s weblog:
“It doesn’t seem to matter whether you are right or wrong, when you take a personal matter public and you get into a public fight, nobody seems to win. In public fights, neither side looks good and the whole thing becomes a train wreck for people to watch. I don’t like to get into public fights. When I look back at a few blog posts I have made in the past when I was angry and emotional, I realize that my best qualities are certainly not shinning through and I am not at my most articulate. Even worse, with my anger and state of emotions, I am not adding much value to the world. ”
The whole post was a model of dignity and maturity. Frankly next time Robert? Let Maryam speak first.
No weblog is worth a friend.
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Not surprising since Dave has generally been an ass when I’ve met him or talked to him. But one must realize, when a blogger or friends with a blogger, that you are open game and that you can’t ever trust someone’s better judgment. If you want it to be private then ask, don’t assume. But DW’s still an ass.
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Not surprising since Dave has generally been an ass when I’ve met him or talked to him. But one must realize, when a blogger or friends with a blogger, that you are open game and that you can’t ever trust someone’s better judgment. If you want it to be private then ask, don’t assume. But DW’s still an ass.
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Shelly, don’t you think it’s demeaning to be told how to be a good husband? But then I find it demeaning to be cooking my own meal (which I’ve just done for the first time in a long time) so I do wonder…
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Shelly, don’t you think it’s demeaning to be told how to be a good husband? But then I find it demeaning to be cooking my own meal (which I’ve just done for the first time in a long time) so I do wonder…
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Oh, Don, don’t you know that the blogger’s code of conduct says you are allowed to be demeaning toward Robert Scoble, but not to Maryam? 😉
Aaron, I’d rather we just stay on the facts here and not get into name calling. That’s part of the problem too and I’ve gotta stop condoning it in my little world. Maybe that’s OK elsewhere but I’d rather have a nice discussion here without people calling other people “asses.” Thanks!
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Oh, Don, don’t you know that the blogger’s code of conduct says you are allowed to be demeaning toward Robert Scoble, but not to Maryam? 😉
Aaron, I’d rather we just stay on the facts here and not get into name calling. That’s part of the problem too and I’ve gotta stop condoning it in my little world. Maybe that’s OK elsewhere but I’d rather have a nice discussion here without people calling other people “asses.” Thanks!
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Who would have guessed that Germaine Greer would be commenting on Robert’s blog! 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
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Who would have guessed that Germaine Greer would be commenting on Robert’s blog! 🙂
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
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What’s with the hurry for some code of conduct? Anyone here old enough to remember usenet back in the 90’s? Same thing happened there as it does in blogs. Different technologies, same stuff.
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What’s with the hurry for some code of conduct? Anyone here old enough to remember usenet back in the 90’s? Same thing happened there as it does in blogs. Different technologies, same stuff.
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Forget the code of conduct being bandied around at the moment. What we need is a PNDA document to be drafted. A Personal Non-Disclosure Agreeement. Once signed personal conversations, whether they be on the telephone, email, IM, old fashoned letters, etc. cannot make their way on to your blog, someone elses or any public forums.
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Forget the code of conduct being bandied around at the moment. What we need is a PNDA document to be drafted. A Personal Non-Disclosure Agreeement. Once signed personal conversations, whether they be on the telephone, email, IM, old fashoned letters, etc. cannot make their way on to your blog, someone elses or any public forums.
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Wait, arne’t you bringing up your own private conversation with Maryam into the blogsphere yourself (“she was crying and VERY hurt by what had been said about her”) ?
Weren’t you condemning Winer for the samet hing?
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Wait, arne’t you bringing up your own private conversation with Maryam into the blogsphere yourself (“she was crying and VERY hurt by what had been said about her”) ?
Weren’t you condemning Winer for the samet hing?
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Matt: yep. But once something like this gets taken public, might as well take the whole thing public since otherwise you have incomplete details.
Personally, now I realize that maybe Justin.TV has the right idea!
Wasn’t it Madonna that said “exploit yourself before everyone else does?” Or something like that.
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Matt: yep. But once something like this gets taken public, might as well take the whole thing public since otherwise you have incomplete details.
Personally, now I realize that maybe Justin.TV has the right idea!
Wasn’t it Madonna that said “exploit yourself before everyone else does?” Or something like that.
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Robert: “exploit yourself before everyone else does?”
Makes sense to me. That’s why those British soldiers who were held captive (now released) are selling their stories. People are upset about that. But it’s the same thing. Someone else will make money from their ordeal, it may as well be them.
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Robert: “exploit yourself before everyone else does?”
Makes sense to me. That’s why those British soldiers who were held captive (now released) are selling their stories. People are upset about that. But it’s the same thing. Someone else will make money from their ordeal, it may as well be them.
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Think about this — I expressed my opinion and whether it was right or not, it was genuine. Robert had a right to reject such an opinion, but at least I would hope he would respect that it was genuine.
I’ve since had John, Robert, and Don treating my opinion in a humorous manner, deriding such, making fun of it, and me.
Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?
Typical. Hypocrites.
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Think about this — I expressed my opinion and whether it was right or not, it was genuine. Robert had a right to reject such an opinion, but at least I would hope he would respect that it was genuine.
I’ve since had John, Robert, and Don treating my opinion in a humorous manner, deriding such, making fun of it, and me.
Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?
Typical. Hypocrites.
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Shelley: ______.
That’s all I have to say. You’ve effectively silenced me. Congratulations.
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Shelley: ______.
That’s all I have to say. You’ve effectively silenced me. Congratulations.
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“Oh, Don, don’t you know that the blogger’s code of conduct says you are allowed to be demeaning toward Robert Scoble, but not to Maryam?”
That’s why you’re such a good blogger. You have a thick skin.
Well, that and you allow anonymous comments. 😉
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“Oh, Don, don’t you know that the blogger’s code of conduct says you are allowed to be demeaning toward Robert Scoble, but not to Maryam?”
That’s why you’re such a good blogger. You have a thick skin.
Well, that and you allow anonymous comments. 😉
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Anon >You have a thick skin.
It’s not as thick as I’d like.
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Anon >You have a thick skin.
It’s not as thick as I’d like.
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John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments.
Dude, I’d be truly frightened of what it would mean were I to think I can speak for her in any situation up to and including “what is the acceleration of gravity on Earth”. If nothing else it would mean I’ve had *far* too much contact with her 😛
Actually, if I’m going to demean someone, I’ll not be even slightly subtle about it. Why waste time.
@30 “She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing”
With all due respect, but aren’t phone conversation between one person and another assumed to be private, even if the topic of conversation is a “public” topic? Maybe in your world every interaction you have with other humans are assumed to be public and thus show up on your blog, but most civilized people show more respect for their “friends” and don’t share private conversations with the world.
When you talk to someone like Winer, whose life revolves around their blog on a constant basis, you should assume that everything you say is going up on their site, unless you explicitly ask them not to post it, and you should probably ask every time you say anything you don’t want on the Intarweb. Getting mad at Winer for posting stuff you tell him is like getting mad at a scorpion for stinging you.
Shelley: ______.
That’s all I have to say. You’ve effectively silenced me. Congratulations.
Maybe you Baba Looey, but I just got back from class, I’m all warmed up.
Think about this — I expressed my opinion and whether it was right or not, it was genuine. Robert had a right to reject such an opinion, but at least I would hope he would respect that it was genuine.
When did “genuine” become synonymous for “treated like the word of the Almighty”. So far, the only time you seem to get your hackles up is when people have the temerity to either do shit differently than you would or (HORRORS) disagree with you. Well guess what, the world doesn’t exist either at or for your pleasure, nor do we all sit around and say “What would Shelley let us do” in all situations. Damn, did you have to get your doors remodeled to fit that ego through it?
I’ve since had John, Robert, and Don treating my opinion in a humorous manner, deriding such, making fun of it, and me.
No Shelley, i was not making fun of you. If i was making fun of you, I’d have been real damned obvious about it. What I was doing was calling “bullshit” on your line of crap that somehow, Robert speaking up for, and about his wife is demeaning. Note: “speaking up for“. That is not in fact the same as “speaking for”. The “up” makes it different. Somewhere along the line you got real confused about the concept of “letting someone fight their own battles”, and decided it meant “If anyone takes up for me without my approval they are somehow belittling me.” If that’s what you believe, hey party on Garth, but it speaks to some serious insecurities in your own self-image when it comes to handling conflict, aka, “methinks thou dost protest too much”. I find your…enthusiasm in insisting that Robert demeaned Maryam in this post impressive. Well, more de- than im-, but definitely pressive. Seems to me you might be projecting a bit.
Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?
Lord, here we go. I was hoping you wouldn’t resort to such lame tactics, but I’ve been wrong before. Guess what, Kathy Sierra getting raked by a couple of prats is not a license to kill for you, or any other woman. You want to state something that IMO, reeks of bullshit writ large, and you want to walk around with the whole “I’m Shelley Powers, I fear no one” schtick, then you need to accept that here and there, someone’s gonna say “Yo, you’re fulla shit on this one.” And I’m saying, point blank, you’re fulla shit on this one. Totally and completely. But what do you do when someone says that, and worst of all, refuses to back down when you get loud and in their face about it? Oh, NOW, it’s yet another example of misogny in the “blogosphere”. That’s just pathetic in principle and use, and I’m honestly a bit bummed that you’d stoop to that. It’s only slightly better than saying “You can’t argue with me, I’M A GIRL”. WTF, you having two X chromosomes mean your opinion gets a free pass, and any opinion from a Y chromosome is automatically wrong?
Typical. Hypocrites.
Words from an expert in the field, at least in this post. You have the right to any opinion you want, however, that is not the same as the right to have everyone else in hearing range shut up and take it as gospel. Get over yourself and your perceived privileges of gender.
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John, stop demeaning Shelley in my comments.
Dude, I’d be truly frightened of what it would mean were I to think I can speak for her in any situation up to and including “what is the acceleration of gravity on Earth”. If nothing else it would mean I’ve had *far* too much contact with her 😛
Actually, if I’m going to demean someone, I’ll not be even slightly subtle about it. Why waste time.
@30 “She didn’t say the call was private, and it was about a blog post, which is very much a public thing”
With all due respect, but aren’t phone conversation between one person and another assumed to be private, even if the topic of conversation is a “public” topic? Maybe in your world every interaction you have with other humans are assumed to be public and thus show up on your blog, but most civilized people show more respect for their “friends” and don’t share private conversations with the world.
When you talk to someone like Winer, whose life revolves around their blog on a constant basis, you should assume that everything you say is going up on their site, unless you explicitly ask them not to post it, and you should probably ask every time you say anything you don’t want on the Intarweb. Getting mad at Winer for posting stuff you tell him is like getting mad at a scorpion for stinging you.
Shelley: ______.
That’s all I have to say. You’ve effectively silenced me. Congratulations.
Maybe you Baba Looey, but I just got back from class, I’m all warmed up.
Think about this — I expressed my opinion and whether it was right or not, it was genuine. Robert had a right to reject such an opinion, but at least I would hope he would respect that it was genuine.
When did “genuine” become synonymous for “treated like the word of the Almighty”. So far, the only time you seem to get your hackles up is when people have the temerity to either do shit differently than you would or (HORRORS) disagree with you. Well guess what, the world doesn’t exist either at or for your pleasure, nor do we all sit around and say “What would Shelley let us do” in all situations. Damn, did you have to get your doors remodeled to fit that ego through it?
I’ve since had John, Robert, and Don treating my opinion in a humorous manner, deriding such, making fun of it, and me.
No Shelley, i was not making fun of you. If i was making fun of you, I’d have been real damned obvious about it. What I was doing was calling “bullshit” on your line of crap that somehow, Robert speaking up for, and about his wife is demeaning. Note: “speaking up for“. That is not in fact the same as “speaking for”. The “up” makes it different. Somewhere along the line you got real confused about the concept of “letting someone fight their own battles”, and decided it meant “If anyone takes up for me without my approval they are somehow belittling me.” If that’s what you believe, hey party on Garth, but it speaks to some serious insecurities in your own self-image when it comes to handling conflict, aka, “methinks thou dost protest too much”. I find your…enthusiasm in insisting that Robert demeaned Maryam in this post impressive. Well, more de- than im-, but definitely pressive. Seems to me you might be projecting a bit.
Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?
Lord, here we go. I was hoping you wouldn’t resort to such lame tactics, but I’ve been wrong before. Guess what, Kathy Sierra getting raked by a couple of prats is not a license to kill for you, or any other woman. You want to state something that IMO, reeks of bullshit writ large, and you want to walk around with the whole “I’m Shelley Powers, I fear no one” schtick, then you need to accept that here and there, someone’s gonna say “Yo, you’re fulla shit on this one.” And I’m saying, point blank, you’re fulla shit on this one. Totally and completely. But what do you do when someone says that, and worst of all, refuses to back down when you get loud and in their face about it? Oh, NOW, it’s yet another example of misogny in the “blogosphere”. That’s just pathetic in principle and use, and I’m honestly a bit bummed that you’d stoop to that. It’s only slightly better than saying “You can’t argue with me, I’M A GIRL”. WTF, you having two X chromosomes mean your opinion gets a free pass, and any opinion from a Y chromosome is automatically wrong?
Typical. Hypocrites.
Words from an expert in the field, at least in this post. You have the right to any opinion you want, however, that is not the same as the right to have everyone else in hearing range shut up and take it as gospel. Get over yourself and your perceived privileges of gender.
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Anon >You have a thick skin.
It’s not as thick as I’d like.
Thick skin is the result of frequent, rather brutal combat, verbally or otherwise. For my part, I’m glad you DON’T have as thick a skin as someone like me. It’s damned handy to have, but getting it sucks diseased donkey dick.
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Anon >You have a thick skin.
It’s not as thick as I’d like.
Thick skin is the result of frequent, rather brutal combat, verbally or otherwise. For my part, I’m glad you DON’T have as thick a skin as someone like me. It’s damned handy to have, but getting it sucks diseased donkey dick.
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Ah, another episode in “As The Blog Turns”.
I don’t know whether to laugh or yawn.
P.S.
Welch, shut up and let other people get a word in edge-wise.
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Ah, another episode in “As The Blog Turns”.
I don’t know whether to laugh or yawn.
P.S.
Welch, shut up and let other people get a word in edge-wise.
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Shelly, I was neither deriding nor making fun of you. Are you sure there aren’t more friendly and less demeaning ways to interpret my words?
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Shelly, I was neither deriding nor making fun of you. Are you sure there aren’t more friendly and less demeaning ways to interpret my words?
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@80 “When you talk to someone like Winer, whose life revolves around their blog on a constant basis, you should assume that everything you say is going up on their site, unless you explicitly ask them not to post it, and you should probably ask every time you say anything you don’t want on the Intarweb. Getting mad at Winer for posting stuff you tell him is like getting mad at a scorpion for stinging you.”
Sigh. Well, then, all the more reason for the world to continue to believe, and apparently rightly so, that geeks lack any semblance of manners and social graces.
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@80 “When you talk to someone like Winer, whose life revolves around their blog on a constant basis, you should assume that everything you say is going up on their site, unless you explicitly ask them not to post it, and you should probably ask every time you say anything you don’t want on the Intarweb. Getting mad at Winer for posting stuff you tell him is like getting mad at a scorpion for stinging you.”
Sigh. Well, then, all the more reason for the world to continue to believe, and apparently rightly so, that geeks lack any semblance of manners and social graces.
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John, you’re right, you weren’t making fun of me. And you’re also right in that I can be on the receiving end as well as the giving.
Robert, I apologize. I popped off when this was between you and Maryam. How one spouse treats another really shouldn’t be debated in comments. I know this, but reacted first, thought at leisure.
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John, you’re right, you weren’t making fun of me. And you’re also right in that I can be on the receiving end as well as the giving.
Robert, I apologize. I popped off when this was between you and Maryam. How one spouse treats another really shouldn’t be debated in comments. I know this, but reacted first, thought at leisure.
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Dave is being sued by his former friend. Lawsuits speak louder than words. Dave should remember that years ago the “angry mob” went after Hitler, he should be thankful they did.
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Dave is being sued by his former friend. Lawsuits speak louder than words. Dave should remember that years ago the “angry mob” went after Hitler, he should be thankful they did.
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John, you’re right, you weren’t making fun of me. And you’re also right in that I can be on the receiving end as well as the giving.
Ain’t nobody prefect and all. I’m lucky. I have a cadre of close personal friends who are quick to email me with “You’re being a dick, knock it off ya assmunch”. I highly recommend such a group, they’re really handy when the ego starts to have the bad thoughts.
You should come to Macworld, there’s free-flowing beer there. I know people you’d have fun with.
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John, you’re right, you weren’t making fun of me. And you’re also right in that I can be on the receiving end as well as the giving.
Ain’t nobody prefect and all. I’m lucky. I have a cadre of close personal friends who are quick to email me with “You’re being a dick, knock it off ya assmunch”. I highly recommend such a group, they’re really handy when the ego starts to have the bad thoughts.
You should come to Macworld, there’s free-flowing beer there. I know people you’d have fun with.
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Well, I came back to this ye olde comments section to see if Mr. Scoble had any more wise words. Well, Scoble did, but he rest of you illustrate completely what I talked about in my earlier comments, which means you read them and didn’t care, or you didn’t read them at all. Which (the latter) is more likely the case and the problem with the Internet as it is, with how easy it is to either start a blog or comment on one, the:
ME ME ME LOOK AT ME I’M AWESOME syndrome.
Maybe you people didn’t get enough attention as kids, or maybe you were really unpopular at school, but now in your “adult” lives you are ready to get on this series of tubes we call the Internet and blog the FUCK out of it.
Whatever. You’re not that important.
Mr. Scoble and his wife got burned by people, people who may or may not be total and complete assholes, and they are learning from it.
Drop it.
You’re upset. You’re upset at Dave Winer. You’re upset at meankids. You’re upset at me. That’s fine. Be upset at me. Then realize I’m just some dude on a Macbook who has some time on his hands, then get out and experience something awesome. Look up some new music on the Internets. Go to your local music hall and see some band you’ve never heard of. Spend some time with your husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/weird transvestite that hangs out in your living room even though you’ve never met him. Whatever.
This is, with all the meanness and violence and stupidity, a really cool place to live, and to be. Enjoy it while you can. No matter who wins some blog war, we’re all going to be offline at some point.
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Well, I came back to this ye olde comments section to see if Mr. Scoble had any more wise words. Well, Scoble did, but he rest of you illustrate completely what I talked about in my earlier comments, which means you read them and didn’t care, or you didn’t read them at all. Which (the latter) is more likely the case and the problem with the Internet as it is, with how easy it is to either start a blog or comment on one, the:
ME ME ME LOOK AT ME I’M AWESOME syndrome.
Maybe you people didn’t get enough attention as kids, or maybe you were really unpopular at school, but now in your “adult” lives you are ready to get on this series of tubes we call the Internet and blog the FUCK out of it.
Whatever. You’re not that important.
Mr. Scoble and his wife got burned by people, people who may or may not be total and complete assholes, and they are learning from it.
Drop it.
You’re upset. You’re upset at Dave Winer. You’re upset at meankids. You’re upset at me. That’s fine. Be upset at me. Then realize I’m just some dude on a Macbook who has some time on his hands, then get out and experience something awesome. Look up some new music on the Internets. Go to your local music hall and see some band you’ve never heard of. Spend some time with your husband/wife/boyfriend/girlfriend/weird transvestite that hangs out in your living room even though you’ve never met him. Whatever.
This is, with all the meanness and violence and stupidity, a really cool place to live, and to be. Enjoy it while you can. No matter who wins some blog war, we’re all going to be offline at some point.
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It is pretty hard to stay silence.
“Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens
Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens
Brown paper packages tied up with strings
These are a few of my favorite things”
It is not okay to assume Tech Females are over-reacting frightened kittens. Let me share a personal real story here (short version) to illustrate the point.
###
On one summer warm Saturday in a busy street in SF downtown, I was innocent enough to offer help to a stranger because the stranger was making weird noises while leaving baggages outside the car. The stranger didn’t response my offer triggered me to go back the 2nd time to look at the car. A couple of things strange enough to make me wonder. I didn’t have prove. However, I made a wise determination on the spot – What If I am Right about the crime?
There were so many people walking on the street like business as usual. There was a couple hundreds of guests gathering for a celebration just 10 yards away from the crime spot. At least there are tens of medical doctors and tens of Ph.D.s attending the celebration at the time. Yes it is frightened to be the only one to call it with no prove.
No one was willing to help me on the street. I turned to the building security guard. The guard couldn’t do anything without prove except calling the police. At the end, the car bulgar walked away with all the baggages.
The police arrived in time to arrest the car buglar. If I didn’t ask the guard to run down the street to check the car, the car bulgar could have driven the car away. Police told me they have been questioning the same car buglar many times in the past. I was the only one witness caught the bulgar in action with strong evidence – stolen baggages. Distory Attorney called to inform me that the case was close due to my report after the trial at court.
There were so many people watching the crime occurred, did nothing and said nothing. No one want to believe a car bulgar would break into a car on a busy street.
###
Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
On the other hand, I encourage Kathy not to stop loving what she loves to do. Love will overcome hate. Passion will overcome fear.
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It is pretty hard to stay silence.
“Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens
Bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens
Brown paper packages tied up with strings
These are a few of my favorite things”
It is not okay to assume Tech Females are over-reacting frightened kittens. Let me share a personal real story here (short version) to illustrate the point.
###
On one summer warm Saturday in a busy street in SF downtown, I was innocent enough to offer help to a stranger because the stranger was making weird noises while leaving baggages outside the car. The stranger didn’t response my offer triggered me to go back the 2nd time to look at the car. A couple of things strange enough to make me wonder. I didn’t have prove. However, I made a wise determination on the spot – What If I am Right about the crime?
There were so many people walking on the street like business as usual. There was a couple hundreds of guests gathering for a celebration just 10 yards away from the crime spot. At least there are tens of medical doctors and tens of Ph.D.s attending the celebration at the time. Yes it is frightened to be the only one to call it with no prove.
No one was willing to help me on the street. I turned to the building security guard. The guard couldn’t do anything without prove except calling the police. At the end, the car bulgar walked away with all the baggages.
The police arrived in time to arrest the car buglar. If I didn’t ask the guard to run down the street to check the car, the car bulgar could have driven the car away. Police told me they have been questioning the same car buglar many times in the past. I was the only one witness caught the bulgar in action with strong evidence – stolen baggages. Distory Attorney called to inform me that the case was close due to my report after the trial at court.
There were so many people watching the crime occurred, did nothing and said nothing. No one want to believe a car bulgar would break into a car on a busy street.
###
Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
On the other hand, I encourage Kathy not to stop loving what she loves to do. Love will overcome hate. Passion will overcome fear.
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It is not okay to assume Maryam has the same open policy like Robert thinking Maryam can take the same type of attack like a guy.
It is not a secret that Maryam is pregnant in her 2nd trimester. Why frighten a pregnant lady? It is medically known that pregnant females experience drastic changes in hormone. Guys, give her a break!
It is not fair for an unborn child being frightened by these male bloggers. We’ll hold you responsible if the baby grows ugly or goes bald.
Robert Scoble: Take care of your Maryam. Give her the love she deserved. Shield her with love , away from those haters and nasty responses.
Dave Winer: Think twice before you post something about pregnant lady. The unborn baby is involved.
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It is not okay to assume Maryam has the same open policy like Robert thinking Maryam can take the same type of attack like a guy.
It is not a secret that Maryam is pregnant in her 2nd trimester. Why frighten a pregnant lady? It is medically known that pregnant females experience drastic changes in hormone. Guys, give her a break!
It is not fair for an unborn child being frightened by these male bloggers. We’ll hold you responsible if the baby grows ugly or goes bald.
Robert Scoble: Take care of your Maryam. Give her the love she deserved. Shield her with love , away from those haters and nasty responses.
Dave Winer: Think twice before you post something about pregnant lady. The unborn baby is involved.
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This week inTouch Weekly magazine has an Ad titled “Philanthropist or Sex Kitten” on a Relief Fund.
This time the spelling is correct! Kitten is going “main stream”.
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This week inTouch Weekly magazine has an Ad titled “Philanthropist or Sex Kitten” on a Relief Fund.
This time the spelling is correct! Kitten is going “main stream”.
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“Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?”
I thought they were attacking your opinion, not the fact that you are a woman. Otherwise suddenly no-one can disagree with or criticise a woman, otherwise it’s proof positive of the misogyny of the tech/blogging community? That really is a lame argument. “I’m a woman. You’re arguing with me. Therefore you hate women.” Are all men Socrates, too?
I am reminded of an exchange from a TV show called ‘Hippies’:
Jill: Don’t argue with me, Ray. I thought we agreed that arguing with women is intrinsically wrong, and a sign of oppression.
Ray: Did we?
Jill: Yes.
Ray: Was I there?
Jill: Yes.
Ray: Can I still vote?
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“Where are the big words from last week about the tech community’s treatment of women? Or is it only certain women, and in certain circumstances? Such as when you yourself is not challenged?”
I thought they were attacking your opinion, not the fact that you are a woman. Otherwise suddenly no-one can disagree with or criticise a woman, otherwise it’s proof positive of the misogyny of the tech/blogging community? That really is a lame argument. “I’m a woman. You’re arguing with me. Therefore you hate women.” Are all men Socrates, too?
I am reminded of an exchange from a TV show called ‘Hippies’:
Jill: Don’t argue with me, Ray. I thought we agreed that arguing with women is intrinsically wrong, and a sign of oppression.
Ray: Did we?
Jill: Yes.
Ray: Was I there?
Jill: Yes.
Ray: Can I still vote?
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“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
They’re not really friends then Robert..
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“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
They’re not really friends then Robert..
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It’s not a blog issue: it’s a writing issue. If you haven’t looked at a crowd and thought “ah, material!” you’re not really a writer. Shaw put it best when he said, “a true artist would kill his own grandmother for his art; the ‘Ode on a Grecian Urn’ is worth any number of little old ladies.” And so it is.
While this whole episode must have been horrible to live through (and still is, obviously) it’s easy to see that good will eventually come of it. You know Dave a little better now; you can measure what you say to him or make the educated decision not to. You’ve learned that conversations that aren’t specifically agreed to be off the record aren’t. Period. You’ve learned that the assumptions you and Maryam take for granted aren’t shared by a large group of bloggers. And you’re learning just where each blogger sits in this stadium. All useful to know.
I met your wife at Northern Voice and it’s hard to believe any of the attack could really have been motivated by dislike: she’s about the nicest person in the blogosphere. But does knowing that it was a completely impersonal attack masquerading as a personal one help? I hope so. They don’t know or care about Maryam; they just picked a target with more celeb value than they have.
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It’s not a blog issue: it’s a writing issue. If you haven’t looked at a crowd and thought “ah, material!” you’re not really a writer. Shaw put it best when he said, “a true artist would kill his own grandmother for his art; the ‘Ode on a Grecian Urn’ is worth any number of little old ladies.” And so it is.
While this whole episode must have been horrible to live through (and still is, obviously) it’s easy to see that good will eventually come of it. You know Dave a little better now; you can measure what you say to him or make the educated decision not to. You’ve learned that conversations that aren’t specifically agreed to be off the record aren’t. Period. You’ve learned that the assumptions you and Maryam take for granted aren’t shared by a large group of bloggers. And you’re learning just where each blogger sits in this stadium. All useful to know.
I met your wife at Northern Voice and it’s hard to believe any of the attack could really have been motivated by dislike: she’s about the nicest person in the blogosphere. But does knowing that it was a completely impersonal attack masquerading as a personal one help? I hope so. They don’t know or care about Maryam; they just picked a target with more celeb value than they have.
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Dave Winer: Think twice before you post something about pregnant lady. The unborn baby is involved.
This post is brought to you by the letters “W”, “T” and “F”.
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Dave Winer: Think twice before you post something about pregnant lady. The unborn baby is involved.
This post is brought to you by the letters “W”, “T” and “F”.
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All of you bloggers on all sides of this issue look like a bunch of kindergarten kids fighting on the playground. It is fracking hilarious! Get over yourselves.
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All of you bloggers on all sides of this issue look like a bunch of kindergarten kids fighting on the playground. It is fracking hilarious! Get over yourselves.
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Winer writes: “You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble!”
Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?
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Winer writes: “You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble!”
Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?
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Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit. And then to later play the ‘poor little me’ female victim of all the male bullies who took your ridiculous point head on is, guess what, DEMEANING. Not just to you but to all women.
Grow up and get over female self.
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Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit. And then to later play the ‘poor little me’ female victim of all the male bullies who took your ridiculous point head on is, guess what, DEMEANING. Not just to you but to all women.
Grow up and get over female self.
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I have only got as far as comment #24 on this thread and while I’ll be reading more and might even comment on the whole situation at some point, I’d like to make a quick knee jerk reaction here…
Shelley – I have read a bunch of comments by you here and on a couple of other blogs (I assume they are all by you – at least they were all in the name Shelley and all pointed to burningbird) and have found you to be witty and pretty much on the point most of the time. Your blog is erudite and all round a good read. However… I’d just like to ask if you mean to be demeaning to Maryam by suggesting that she would not be able to tell him if he was “demeaning her” as you suggest? Or possibly she wouldn’t spot it? Who are you to fight her fight without consulting her or to post about her feelings without letting her read your posts first? Come on! Stop defending this point and get on with making better ones!
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I have only got as far as comment #24 on this thread and while I’ll be reading more and might even comment on the whole situation at some point, I’d like to make a quick knee jerk reaction here…
Shelley – I have read a bunch of comments by you here and on a couple of other blogs (I assume they are all by you – at least they were all in the name Shelley and all pointed to burningbird) and have found you to be witty and pretty much on the point most of the time. Your blog is erudite and all round a good read. However… I’d just like to ask if you mean to be demeaning to Maryam by suggesting that she would not be able to tell him if he was “demeaning her” as you suggest? Or possibly she wouldn’t spot it? Who are you to fight her fight without consulting her or to post about her feelings without letting her read your posts first? Come on! Stop defending this point and get on with making better ones!
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Winer writes: “You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble!”
Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?
Don’t you know The Dave is always right?
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Winer writes: “You’ve got some real dork-like trolls here Scoble!”
Mr. Pot, may I introduce you to Mr. Kettle?
Don’t you know The Dave is always right?
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I once read a T-shirt that read “watch out or you’ll end up in my novel” Let your Yes be Yes and no be no.
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I once read a T-shirt that read “watch out or you’ll end up in my novel” Let your Yes be Yes and no be no.
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“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
That sounds very similar to the advice you need when your friend is a songwriter. At least one of Christine Lavin’s songs has come out of a late-night IM conversation…
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“be careful about talking with friends who have blogs”
That sounds very similar to the advice you need when your friend is a songwriter. At least one of Christine Lavin’s songs has come out of a late-night IM conversation…
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Oops, forget I wasn’t logged in as myself there. 🙂
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Oops, forget I wasn’t logged in as myself there. 🙂
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“Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit.”
*applause!!!*
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“Shelly, frankly, I can’t stand women like you who look for offense in everything, not only regarding themselves but regarding other women. You are the ones who give our gender a bad name.
Calling the actions of a husband sticking up for his wife “demeaning” is 1970s feminist bullshit.”
*applause!!!*
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If you geniuses had bothered to take a look, you’d have seen that I apologized to Robert Scoble for commenting on his interaction with his wife several comments ago.
As for 1970s feminist bullshit–is that the same bullshit that guaranteed you the right to have a say about your body, that you’re free of sexual harassment at work, that you’re entitled to equal opportunity in school and on your job?
That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
Well, I know of a couple of countries that would agree with you. Perhaps you might want to consider immigrating there, and then you need never deal with bullshit like that 1970s feminist bullshit ever again.
See? Then we’d all be happy: you wouldn’t have to deal with feminist bullshit, and I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.
And I give our gender a bad name?
Right.
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If you geniuses had bothered to take a look, you’d have seen that I apologized to Robert Scoble for commenting on his interaction with his wife several comments ago.
As for 1970s feminist bullshit–is that the same bullshit that guaranteed you the right to have a say about your body, that you’re free of sexual harassment at work, that you’re entitled to equal opportunity in school and on your job?
That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
Well, I know of a couple of countries that would agree with you. Perhaps you might want to consider immigrating there, and then you need never deal with bullshit like that 1970s feminist bullshit ever again.
See? Then we’d all be happy: you wouldn’t have to deal with feminist bullshit, and I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.
And I give our gender a bad name?
Right.
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“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Takes it for granted? Doesn’t necessarily mean someone does take it for granted because they call it feminist bullshit. When I say “feminist bullshit” I talk about the extreme crap which gets bandied around sometimes. Oh God, don’t open the door for me! I’m a woman and I can open it myself. Who gives a shit!?!? That is the sort of feminist bullshit which is incredulous. Also when people push their beliefs in to the personal space of others, like commenting about a married couple and how they conduct their lives. None of your business. All the stuff about sexual harassment at work, equality etc. is great! But then there are feminists which carry it over the line with their, yes that’s right, feminist bullshit then it gets really annoying. They talk about the great stuff that has resulted from the 70’s feminist movement, but then also bring in their extreme edge crap with it. It’s that second lot which most people hate. It’s gets annoying, like a broken record or nails down a blackboard.
Annoying crap spewed by people like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
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“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Takes it for granted? Doesn’t necessarily mean someone does take it for granted because they call it feminist bullshit. When I say “feminist bullshit” I talk about the extreme crap which gets bandied around sometimes. Oh God, don’t open the door for me! I’m a woman and I can open it myself. Who gives a shit!?!? That is the sort of feminist bullshit which is incredulous. Also when people push their beliefs in to the personal space of others, like commenting about a married couple and how they conduct their lives. None of your business. All the stuff about sexual harassment at work, equality etc. is great! But then there are feminists which carry it over the line with their, yes that’s right, feminist bullshit then it gets really annoying. They talk about the great stuff that has resulted from the 70’s feminist movement, but then also bring in their extreme edge crap with it. It’s that second lot which most people hate. It’s gets annoying, like a broken record or nails down a blackboard.
Annoying crap spewed by people like this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germaine_Greer
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Anyway, no big deal. How’d we get here? Lets get back to talking about more important stuff… like Twitter! 😀
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Anyway, no big deal. How’d we get here? Lets get back to talking about more important stuff… like Twitter! 😀
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“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Again, I suggest you get off your high horse and lose the condescending assumptions, Shelley.
Nobody gave me anything, nor guaranteed me anything, least of all a bunch of misguided women whose “hard work” is degrading males and whose “sacrifice” is millions of preborn babies.
I’m older than you and I dare say more successful than you are, and your “don’t demean my sister nor dare challenge anything I say lest I call you a harasser” trigger finger had absolutely nothing to do with it, thank you very much.
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“I wouldn’t have to listen to a woman who takes for granted the benefits derived from the hard work and sacrifice of women she so casually disdains.”
Again, I suggest you get off your high horse and lose the condescending assumptions, Shelley.
Nobody gave me anything, nor guaranteed me anything, least of all a bunch of misguided women whose “hard work” is degrading males and whose “sacrifice” is millions of preborn babies.
I’m older than you and I dare say more successful than you are, and your “don’t demean my sister nor dare challenge anything I say lest I call you a harasser” trigger finger had absolutely nothing to do with it, thank you very much.
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Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
You know that if she hadn’t said anything, a certain class of men (the gang at Something Awful, Fark, etc.) would have blamed her for being “a dumb bitch” because she didn’t react. Because she did react, she’s “a dumb bitch” for overreacting.
It reminds me of the Rutgers basketball team fiasco. Look at all the people coming out of the woodwork (and rightly so) about Don Imus’s racial comments. How many of them are mentioning Imus’s and his director’s misogynist comments? Not many. It’s much more acceptable to hate women, to trash-talk them, than it is to hate and trash-talk African-Americans. Women just have to “deal with it”. Heck, men are often pressured in private to trash-talk women and are seen as pussy-whipped if they don’t.
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Go back to Kathy Sierra case. Kathy probably gathers enough pieces to feel the danger. The trouble is What If she is Right. I would rather have Kathy protected herself screaming loud than having something tragic happening to her. Therefore I wouldn’t recommend anyone to tease her being over-reacting or attention-grabbing. Crimes happen all the times.
You know that if she hadn’t said anything, a certain class of men (the gang at Something Awful, Fark, etc.) would have blamed her for being “a dumb bitch” because she didn’t react. Because she did react, she’s “a dumb bitch” for overreacting.
It reminds me of the Rutgers basketball team fiasco. Look at all the people coming out of the woodwork (and rightly so) about Don Imus’s racial comments. How many of them are mentioning Imus’s and his director’s misogynist comments? Not many. It’s much more acceptable to hate women, to trash-talk them, than it is to hate and trash-talk African-Americans. Women just have to “deal with it”. Heck, men are often pressured in private to trash-talk women and are seen as pussy-whipped if they don’t.
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>>>That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
No, what’s bullshit (decade irrelevant) is you finding some sort of farreaching, phantom offensiveness in a simple act of defending one’s loved ones over a matter that had become public.
It seems some people today are so anxious for drama and conflict that they look under every rock, within every crevice, to try to find the worst way to interpret a set of words no matter their original intent. When they find it, they cry out, assuming the world must be out to get them. Somehow everyone is attempting to demean, to suppress, to “bring them down.”
It does a disservice to the real issues — mysogyny, racism, and other equally substantial and equally critical — when looks for fault, hurt, or offense, and then reacts to that phantom charge in the artificial name or spirit of that challenge.
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>>>That’s 1970s bullshit, Dawn?
No, what’s bullshit (decade irrelevant) is you finding some sort of farreaching, phantom offensiveness in a simple act of defending one’s loved ones over a matter that had become public.
It seems some people today are so anxious for drama and conflict that they look under every rock, within every crevice, to try to find the worst way to interpret a set of words no matter their original intent. When they find it, they cry out, assuming the world must be out to get them. Somehow everyone is attempting to demean, to suppress, to “bring them down.”
It does a disservice to the real issues — mysogyny, racism, and other equally substantial and equally critical — when looks for fault, hurt, or offense, and then reacts to that phantom charge in the artificial name or spirit of that challenge.
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