Steve Yegge, who is a developer up at Google Kirkland (you can see him in this video tour I did of the Google Kirkland office) has an interesting post titled: The Next Big Language, or NBL for those of you who need three-letter acronymns just to feel sufficiently geeky. Can you guess which language it is?
Yeah, I snuck onto the Wifi network here in Geneva’s airport. Our plane for Munich leaves in 25 minutes.
Scobleizer 
I am SOOOOOOO bummed I missed LIFT this year… but the Stormhoek “Big Love” road trip was my number one priority… and it’s going fantastically well. Really sorry to miss you and Maryam, too…
Laurent is one of my favorite people in the ‘sphere. A splendid chap, all round…
LikeLike
I am SOOOOOOO bummed I missed LIFT this year… but the Stormhoek “Big Love” road trip was my number one priority… and it’s going fantastically well. Really sorry to miss you and Maryam, too…
Laurent is one of my favorite people in the ‘sphere. A splendid chap, all round…
LikeLike
C++ is a hideous language, but Objective C is too Mac-oriented for my tastes.
Whatever ends up being the next big thing needs a couple conditions attached…
1) Needs to be free software (free as in freedom)
2) No corporate sponsorship (needs to be neutral)
Java, for example, is too corporate, and is one of the reasons a lot of people hate it. Until Sun completely releases it under the GPL, I know a lot of people who won’t even touch it. Java’s not that great of a language anyway.
Languages come and go in popularity, and unfortunately, with a given languages popularity comes the need by a lot of hackers to get onboard. I remember this happening with Java. It became so popular that every programmer who knew what a function was authored a book on Java. Stupidly enough, IT leaders, having nothing to go on but Java’s popularity, insisted their hackers write their company’s stuff in Java, even though it wasn’t the best language to do it in.
I always love watching a new language come out and seeing everyone rush to it like it’s the new panacea. Invariably, the work they do is no better, no faster, and they wonder why they even bothered.
Anyway, what needs to happen is we need to ensure the next big language is free software and not tied down with evil licenses. Everyone benefits from free software. Only corporations benefit from proprietary stuff. It’s not about profit, it’s about enabling programmers with the least amount of drag to entry.
Why do you think Sun is GPLing Java… they realize a decade too late that Java would have been the biggest language on the planet had they done so initially. Their little spats with IBM and all that aside, Sun is realizing that even Solaris is doomed to fail against Linux in the server space. What a lot of people don’t understand is that Linux isn’t yet that much of a threat to Apple and MS desktop users, but it is a huge threat to the server space. By the end of this decade, the vast majority of servers will be running some variant of Linux. Look at Apache Web server… more of those than any other Web server. Not only is it free software, but it’s much higher in quality than anything out there.
LikeLike
C++ is a hideous language, but Objective C is too Mac-oriented for my tastes.
Whatever ends up being the next big thing needs a couple conditions attached…
1) Needs to be free software (free as in freedom)
2) No corporate sponsorship (needs to be neutral)
Java, for example, is too corporate, and is one of the reasons a lot of people hate it. Until Sun completely releases it under the GPL, I know a lot of people who won’t even touch it. Java’s not that great of a language anyway.
Languages come and go in popularity, and unfortunately, with a given languages popularity comes the need by a lot of hackers to get onboard. I remember this happening with Java. It became so popular that every programmer who knew what a function was authored a book on Java. Stupidly enough, IT leaders, having nothing to go on but Java’s popularity, insisted their hackers write their company’s stuff in Java, even though it wasn’t the best language to do it in.
I always love watching a new language come out and seeing everyone rush to it like it’s the new panacea. Invariably, the work they do is no better, no faster, and they wonder why they even bothered.
Anyway, what needs to happen is we need to ensure the next big language is free software and not tied down with evil licenses. Everyone benefits from free software. Only corporations benefit from proprietary stuff. It’s not about profit, it’s about enabling programmers with the least amount of drag to entry.
Why do you think Sun is GPLing Java… they realize a decade too late that Java would have been the biggest language on the planet had they done so initially. Their little spats with IBM and all that aside, Sun is realizing that even Solaris is doomed to fail against Linux in the server space. What a lot of people don’t understand is that Linux isn’t yet that much of a threat to Apple and MS desktop users, but it is a huge threat to the server space. By the end of this decade, the vast majority of servers will be running some variant of Linux. Look at Apache Web server… more of those than any other Web server. Not only is it free software, but it’s much higher in quality than anything out there.
LikeLike
“What a lot of people don’t understand is that Linux isn’t yet that much of a threat to Apple and MS desktop users, but it is a huge threat to the server space. ”
I think it is very important for LINUX to grow in the server space, since, if you look at MSFT’s quarterlies, that’s where a big chunk of their cash comes from.
Of course, part of the trouble is corporations who are too clueless to dump Outlook for GMail. I can tell you, from the USER side, GMail is far superior in features.
LikeLike
“What a lot of people don’t understand is that Linux isn’t yet that much of a threat to Apple and MS desktop users, but it is a huge threat to the server space. ”
I think it is very important for LINUX to grow in the server space, since, if you look at MSFT’s quarterlies, that’s where a big chunk of their cash comes from.
Of course, part of the trouble is corporations who are too clueless to dump Outlook for GMail. I can tell you, from the USER side, GMail is far superior in features.
LikeLike
@3
The problem with GMail is it’s proprietary. The goal is for corporations to SAVE money by switching to Linux AND associated FREE software. Corporations exist to make a profit. The less you spend on licenses and useage fees, the better of you are in the long run.
A talented Linux/Unix admin can set up a free software mail system in less than a day and migrate everyone over within a few weeks. I’ve seen it done and it’s less painful than people believe.
GMail is pretty to look at and has nice features, but you’re locked in to the whims of Google’s license, the evil ads, and a host of other problems.
It’s always in the best interest of people to stick with free software so they can control what happens with every aspect of their infrastructure.
For example, I was hired recently by an employer who is interested in moving away from MS to Linux in a number of areas. I have expertise in this area, and I’m hoping that once I show them how much better Linux is in a couple of areas, they’ll seee the light and allow me to move other areas over to Linux as well. They’ll save money by not paying evil licensing fees, we’ll not have vendor lock-in, and the systems are easy to train people on with a minimum of downtime. I’ve had great success with this in the past, and I know my employer will be far happier with Linux since they can focus their money on bigger and better things than licenses. They’ll also not have to keep up with installed licenses and buying new ones.
Linux just makes sense for businesses since it saves them lots of money io the end. Sure, you have to have someone who knows Linux, but I can train my coworkers in little time. No real worry over spyware, viruses, etc.
Free email MTA/MUAs, free VPN, SSH, better Web browsers, OpenOffice, no license fees. It’s getting better all the time.
FOr example, SquirrelMail is simple and elegant and just gets the job done. We don’t do calandering, so we don’t need Evolution or anything like that. We keep it simple and easy.
LikeLike
@3
The problem with GMail is it’s proprietary. The goal is for corporations to SAVE money by switching to Linux AND associated FREE software. Corporations exist to make a profit. The less you spend on licenses and useage fees, the better of you are in the long run.
A talented Linux/Unix admin can set up a free software mail system in less than a day and migrate everyone over within a few weeks. I’ve seen it done and it’s less painful than people believe.
GMail is pretty to look at and has nice features, but you’re locked in to the whims of Google’s license, the evil ads, and a host of other problems.
It’s always in the best interest of people to stick with free software so they can control what happens with every aspect of their infrastructure.
For example, I was hired recently by an employer who is interested in moving away from MS to Linux in a number of areas. I have expertise in this area, and I’m hoping that once I show them how much better Linux is in a couple of areas, they’ll seee the light and allow me to move other areas over to Linux as well. They’ll save money by not paying evil licensing fees, we’ll not have vendor lock-in, and the systems are easy to train people on with a minimum of downtime. I’ve had great success with this in the past, and I know my employer will be far happier with Linux since they can focus their money on bigger and better things than licenses. They’ll also not have to keep up with installed licenses and buying new ones.
Linux just makes sense for businesses since it saves them lots of money io the end. Sure, you have to have someone who knows Linux, but I can train my coworkers in little time. No real worry over spyware, viruses, etc.
Free email MTA/MUAs, free VPN, SSH, better Web browsers, OpenOffice, no license fees. It’s getting better all the time.
FOr example, SquirrelMail is simple and elegant and just gets the job done. We don’t do calandering, so we don’t need Evolution or anything like that. We keep it simple and easy.
LikeLike
I guess the language would be based upon PHP and Delphi (Delphi may be proprietary but its father pascal is not).
Well, another possibility would be an acquisition of 37signals by Google and an NBL would emerge on top of Ruby on Rails. They may not need to acquire 37signals but acquisition has become Google’s expected behavior anyway.
LikeLike
I guess the language would be based upon PHP and Delphi (Delphi may be proprietary but its father pascal is not).
Well, another possibility would be an acquisition of 37signals by Google and an NBL would emerge on top of Ruby on Rails. They may not need to acquire 37signals but acquisition has become Google’s expected behavior anyway.
LikeLike
Well, after reading Stevey’s article, I believe that NBL would be something based upon Delphi/Pascal.
LikeLike
Well, after reading Stevey’s article, I believe that NBL would be something based upon Delphi/Pascal.
LikeLike
Wait, GMail has superior user features to Outlook?
Okay, you’ve gotten it backwards again:
1) Post comment
2) Smoke an assload of crack
That order is SO important.
LikeLike
Wait, GMail has superior user features to Outlook?
Okay, you’ve gotten it backwards again:
1) Post comment
2) Smoke an assload of crack
That order is SO important.
LikeLike
The Next Big Language.. umm.. whatever it turns out to be, can we name it “Goo” or “G++”? 🙂
LikeLike
The Next Big Language.. umm.. whatever it turns out to be, can we name it “Goo” or “G++”? 🙂
LikeLike
@8,
Never happen. Google will never develop a language. It’s not in their best interest. And besides, it wouldn’t be free software. It would be burdened with inappropriate licensure.
Look at the most successful languages of the last thirt y years: C, Perl, Python, Lisp. All free. Java could have been far bigger and better had it been released as free software so hackers could have contributed to it and associated libraries, compilers, etc.
GCC, which is a free software compiler, is probably used by more people than any other compiler out there. It has front ends for almost any useful language written. Why pay thousands for a cheesy compiler from some company, when GCC is far better, better supported, and any help you need is just a question away over the net.
Now, having said that, what I hate is when companies use GCC to write proprietary software. There should be a clause written into the GPL that when using GCC and associated software, it must be released under the GPL. Fair is fair. If you use free software and it’s useful to you, you should contribute back to the community which enabled you.
LikeLike
@8,
Never happen. Google will never develop a language. It’s not in their best interest. And besides, it wouldn’t be free software. It would be burdened with inappropriate licensure.
Look at the most successful languages of the last thirt y years: C, Perl, Python, Lisp. All free. Java could have been far bigger and better had it been released as free software so hackers could have contributed to it and associated libraries, compilers, etc.
GCC, which is a free software compiler, is probably used by more people than any other compiler out there. It has front ends for almost any useful language written. Why pay thousands for a cheesy compiler from some company, when GCC is far better, better supported, and any help you need is just a question away over the net.
Now, having said that, what I hate is when companies use GCC to write proprietary software. There should be a clause written into the GPL that when using GCC and associated software, it must be released under the GPL. Fair is fair. If you use free software and it’s useful to you, you should contribute back to the community which enabled you.
LikeLike
The next big programming languages won’t be programming languages at all… they’re programming interfaces. Check out http://pipes.yahoo.com – this is the future of programming. I like to think of them as APUIs… Application Programming User Interfaces.
LikeLike
The next big programming languages won’t be programming languages at all… they’re programming interfaces. Check out http://pipes.yahoo.com – this is the future of programming. I like to think of them as APUIs… Application Programming User Interfaces.
LikeLike
Are you guys coming to Barcelona for 3GSM?
LikeLike
Are you guys coming to Barcelona for 3GSM?
LikeLike
Robert, really respect that you surfaced this, but honestly, you wouldn’t know a programming language if it stroked you for hours.
LikeLike
Robert, really respect that you surfaced this, but honestly, you wouldn’t know a programming language if it stroked you for hours.
LikeLike
Anyone here checked out D by Digital Mars? There’s a nice intro article about it in the latest issue of Linux Journal (March, I think?).
LikeLike
Anyone here checked out D by Digital Mars? There’s a nice intro article about it in the latest issue of Linux Journal (March, I think?).
LikeLike
Puh-leez: um, that’s not true at all. I might not be very conversant in languages but I can tell German from Japanese just as well as I can tell Visual Basic from Java. I did work at Visual Basic Programmer’s Journal for quite a few years and helped plan the Visual Studio conference where I did learn SOME things about programming.
LikeLike
Puh-leez: um, that’s not true at all. I might not be very conversant in languages but I can tell German from Japanese just as well as I can tell Visual Basic from Java. I did work at Visual Basic Programmer’s Journal for quite a few years and helped plan the Visual Studio conference where I did learn SOME things about programming.
LikeLike
Kosso, I’m not, sorry.
LikeLike
Kosso, I’m not, sorry.
LikeLike
You know what I like about you. You even answer the anonymous posters as negative as they can be. But I would say on this topic, that who cares? Programming languages are sort of a thing of the past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of understanding in terms of business value, content, and context? I would think that another programming language is just another attempt to craft a proprietary locks to a web platform. I’m not really a big fan of such tactics.
LikeLike
You know what I like about you. You even answer the anonymous posters as negative as they can be. But I would say on this topic, that who cares? Programming languages are sort of a thing of the past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of understanding in terms of business value, content, and context? I would think that another programming language is just another attempt to craft a proprietary locks to a web platform. I’m not really a big fan of such tactics.
LikeLike
Programming languages are sort of a thing of the past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of understanding in terms of business value, content, and context?
I smell a marketer.
Such things are created with technology. Computers run via computer languages, so there will *always* be a need for computer languages. They will evolve, to be sure, and probably will eventually be self-programming, but we’re a long way away from that point. Sorry, but Star Trek isn’t here yet.
LikeLike
Programming languages are sort of a thing of the past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of understanding in terms of business value, content, and context?
I smell a marketer.
Such things are created with technology. Computers run via computer languages, so there will *always* be a need for computer languages. They will evolve, to be sure, and probably will eventually be self-programming, but we’re a long way away from that point. Sorry, but Star Trek isn’t here yet.
LikeLike
from #4
> GMail is pretty to look at and has nice features, but
> you’re locked in to the whims of Google’s license,
> the evil ads, and a host of other problems.
….
> we’ll not have vendor lock-in,
This just emphasizes that it doesn’t matter who the supplier is – lock in is lock in. Just ebcause it is technically feasible to migrate your data from one OSS platform to another doesn’t mean its worth it in business terms.
> Programming languages are sort of a thing of the
> past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of
> understanding in terms of business value, content,
> and context?
See http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
BTW, Robert, I’m cleaning up my RSS feeds – far too many to read in one day AND get some work done – and I’m dumping Dan Farber’s BTL – mainly because I have to leave reader to get anything out of them.
LikeLike
from #4
> GMail is pretty to look at and has nice features, but
> you’re locked in to the whims of Google’s license,
> the evil ads, and a host of other problems.
….
> we’ll not have vendor lock-in,
This just emphasizes that it doesn’t matter who the supplier is – lock in is lock in. Just ebcause it is technically feasible to migrate your data from one OSS platform to another doesn’t mean its worth it in business terms.
> Programming languages are sort of a thing of the
> past. Haven’t we moved to another plane of
> understanding in terms of business value, content,
> and context?
See http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
BTW, Robert, I’m cleaning up my RSS feeds – far too many to read in one day AND get some work done – and I’m dumping Dan Farber’s BTL – mainly because I have to leave reader to get anything out of them.
LikeLike
all programming language are not safe ,when it comes to hacking. i this case we have to be more updated, in all resources. everytime there is a new virus there is a new software. what does it mean? you know what i mean.
virus scanner creators are the ones make viruses. they distroy and cure.
LikeLike
all programming language are not safe ,when it comes to hacking. i this case we have to be more updated, in all resources. everytime there is a new virus there is a new software. what does it mean? you know what i mean.
virus scanner creators are the ones make viruses. they distroy and cure.
LikeLike
The NBL should have the following
#1) excellent documentation (with samples)
#2) A neutral standards commitee
#3) compilers from major software vendors
#4) Solid editors to code
I don’t understand ‘free software’ as applied to languages. Free compilers – yes they make sense. But what’s a ‘free language’?
LikeLike
The NBL should have the following
#1) excellent documentation (with samples)
#2) A neutral standards commitee
#3) compilers from major software vendors
#4) Solid editors to code
I don’t understand ‘free software’ as applied to languages. Free compilers – yes they make sense. But what’s a ‘free language’?
LikeLike
“NBL for those of you who need three-letter acronymns just to feel sufficiently geeky.”
A not particularly geeky but pedantic point: It’s a three letter abbreviation (or TLA). An acronymn has to be, strictly speaking, a word that can be pronounced as a word, ie NATO, SCUBA.
You were talking about languages after all…
LikeLike
“NBL for those of you who need three-letter acronymns just to feel sufficiently geeky.”
A not particularly geeky but pedantic point: It’s a three letter abbreviation (or TLA). An acronymn has to be, strictly speaking, a word that can be pronounced as a word, ie NATO, SCUBA.
You were talking about languages after all…
LikeLike
PCMCIA = People Can’t Memorize Computer Industry Abbreviations 🙂
LikeLike
PCMCIA = People Can’t Memorize Computer Industry Abbreviations 🙂
LikeLike
Wow, have fun! You sound like your making the rounds.
Sorry we missed your interview on BlogTalkRadio this week. We did find someone to fill in though.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ Drop me a line when you get back.
Talk soon!!
Safe Travels
LikeLike
Wow, have fun! You sound like your making the rounds.
Sorry we missed your interview on BlogTalkRadio this week. We did find someone to fill in though.
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ Drop me a line when you get back.
Talk soon!!
Safe Travels
LikeLike
I was going to comment on Steve’s blog but he’s locked it down to Blogger subscribers only. Anyhow, The NBL thing comes down to one of two possibilities. RPG.Net or iCOBOL. If it sounds ridiculous enough it has to be true. (Anybody who follows my site would most likely expect me to say something fantastic about Groovy here but the point is something as big as NBL would likely be a gigantic regression back to the days of old like when we all started wearing bell-bottoms again.)
LikeLike
I was going to comment on Steve’s blog but he’s locked it down to Blogger subscribers only. Anyhow, The NBL thing comes down to one of two possibilities. RPG.Net or iCOBOL. If it sounds ridiculous enough it has to be true. (Anybody who follows my site would most likely expect me to say something fantastic about Groovy here but the point is something as big as NBL would likely be a gigantic regression back to the days of old like when we all started wearing bell-bottoms again.)
LikeLike
You know, NBL sounds a *lot* like C# to me. If C# and .NET were developed by any other company except Microsoft, I’d bet this article would make frequent reference to it.
LikeLike
You know, NBL sounds a *lot* like C# to me. If C# and .NET were developed by any other company except Microsoft, I’d bet this article would make frequent reference to it.
LikeLike
Check the comments on Steve’s entry — it’s pretty clear he means JavaScript / ECMAScript
LikeLike
Check the comments on Steve’s entry — it’s pretty clear he means JavaScript / ECMAScript
LikeLike
@20,
Free languages…
Perl, Python, Ruby… goes on and on…
The developers of these languages released them under free software licenses. They were not developed under a corporate umbrella with restrictive licenses.
Free software is just simply better. Look at Firefox, for example. Python and Perl are better at what they do than anything else out there. Again, free software.
The best compiler on the planet, bar none, is GCC, a free software compiler.
In the end, the odds are against corporate software and draconian licensure.
I forsee the server market literally dominated by free software in a very short amount of time. Yes, there will be other player, but they will be small in comparison.
LikeLike
@20,
Free languages…
Perl, Python, Ruby… goes on and on…
The developers of these languages released them under free software licenses. They were not developed under a corporate umbrella with restrictive licenses.
Free software is just simply better. Look at Firefox, for example. Python and Perl are better at what they do than anything else out there. Again, free software.
The best compiler on the planet, bar none, is GCC, a free software compiler.
In the end, the odds are against corporate software and draconian licensure.
I forsee the server market literally dominated by free software in a very short amount of time. Yes, there will be other player, but they will be small in comparison.
LikeLike
@18, Martin:
I’m not talking about migrating from one OSS platform to another. I’m talking about wholesale migration from draconian corporate software to free/libre software.
The best web servers are free software, the best browsers are free software, the best MTAs/MUAs are free software… the list goes on.
The Internet is largely made up of free software. Almost 90% of all email servers are free software-based MTAs (mail transport agents) like Sendmail, Exim, Postfix, etc.
Almost ALL DNS servers are built on free software.
The most robust operating systems are free software. FreeBSD is widely known as THE best server OS on the planet for stablily, TCP/IP stack, you name it.
There is no downside to free software that I’m aware of.
It’s a proven fact that it takes more admins to administer a network of thousands of Windows computers than it takes to administer a similarly sized BSD/Linux network.
Windows installations were trashed by Nimda, Code Red, etc., while all the *nix boxes I was responsible for went untouched.
Security is achieved far easier under *nix than under Windows.
The benefits go on and on. And before you tell me I know not what I speak of, I have spent the last almost 6 years in IT security as the primary focus of my duties. People I’ve introduced to Linux and free software do not go back to Windows or the Mac.
Remember this: in the free software world, we value freedom above all else, with innovation being second. Yes, a lot of things done in free software were done first by corporate software developers, but free software is just better for those who know how to make the best use of it.
Ending, there very few tasks that free software cannot do that corporate software can, and those gaps are slowly being closed.
So please don’t say it not always beneficial to move over to free/libre software on the server side. It’s ALWAYS benefical to save money on evil licensure, draconian usage terms, and stupid CPU limits. Proprietary compilers limit you to how many programs you can compile at one time.
No thanks, I’m sticking with free software. It’s just better.
LikeLike
@18, Martin:
I’m not talking about migrating from one OSS platform to another. I’m talking about wholesale migration from draconian corporate software to free/libre software.
The best web servers are free software, the best browsers are free software, the best MTAs/MUAs are free software… the list goes on.
The Internet is largely made up of free software. Almost 90% of all email servers are free software-based MTAs (mail transport agents) like Sendmail, Exim, Postfix, etc.
Almost ALL DNS servers are built on free software.
The most robust operating systems are free software. FreeBSD is widely known as THE best server OS on the planet for stablily, TCP/IP stack, you name it.
There is no downside to free software that I’m aware of.
It’s a proven fact that it takes more admins to administer a network of thousands of Windows computers than it takes to administer a similarly sized BSD/Linux network.
Windows installations were trashed by Nimda, Code Red, etc., while all the *nix boxes I was responsible for went untouched.
Security is achieved far easier under *nix than under Windows.
The benefits go on and on. And before you tell me I know not what I speak of, I have spent the last almost 6 years in IT security as the primary focus of my duties. People I’ve introduced to Linux and free software do not go back to Windows or the Mac.
Remember this: in the free software world, we value freedom above all else, with innovation being second. Yes, a lot of things done in free software were done first by corporate software developers, but free software is just better for those who know how to make the best use of it.
Ending, there very few tasks that free software cannot do that corporate software can, and those gaps are slowly being closed.
So please don’t say it not always beneficial to move over to free/libre software on the server side. It’s ALWAYS benefical to save money on evil licensure, draconian usage terms, and stupid CPU limits. Proprietary compilers limit you to how many programs you can compile at one time.
No thanks, I’m sticking with free software. It’s just better.
LikeLike
@peter:
Yep, the best image editing software is free software, the best video editing software is free software, the best IDE is free software, the best office app is free software, the best media player is free software, aint it?
>>Look at the most successful languages of the last thirt y years: C, Perl, Python, Lisp
I can’t believe nobody’s nitpicked that line before me. Out of the four, except C, I can’t call anything else successful. Useful? Yes. Cool? Yes. More Elegant/Aesthetic? Yes. Productive to Code in? Yes. Successfuly? Nope.
I seriously think, Peter, that your time would be better spent if you *actually* (gasp) spend your time (gasp) making linux not suck on the Desktop (gasp) rather than troll around? Because, afterall, after reading your comment, who would be running that damn Windows evah? See ya from linux!
LikeLike
@peter:
Yep, the best image editing software is free software, the best video editing software is free software, the best IDE is free software, the best office app is free software, the best media player is free software, aint it?
>>Look at the most successful languages of the last thirt y years: C, Perl, Python, Lisp
I can’t believe nobody’s nitpicked that line before me. Out of the four, except C, I can’t call anything else successful. Useful? Yes. Cool? Yes. More Elegant/Aesthetic? Yes. Productive to Code in? Yes. Successfuly? Nope.
I seriously think, Peter, that your time would be better spent if you *actually* (gasp) spend your time (gasp) making linux not suck on the Desktop (gasp) rather than troll around? Because, afterall, after reading your comment, who would be running that damn Windows evah? See ya from linux!
LikeLike
Funny how a post about Programming Languages can turn into people posting about OpenSource and Evil:D
LikeLike
Funny how a post about Programming Languages can turn into people posting about OpenSource and Evil:D
LikeLike
Re @9: “GCC, which is a free software compiler, is probably used by more people than any other compiler out there”
Maybe for *nix, but not for Windows.
LikeLike
Re @9: “GCC, which is a free software compiler, is probably used by more people than any other compiler out there”
Maybe for *nix, but not for Windows.
LikeLike
Re: @28 “The best compiler on the planet, bar none, is GCC, a free software compiler.”
Maybe for *nix, but not for Windows.
LikeLike
Re: @28 “The best compiler on the planet, bar none, is GCC, a free software compiler.”
Maybe for *nix, but not for Windows.
LikeLike
Open Source is great, but proprietary software isn’t all evil by definition. Best tool for the job I say.
Having said that, if I were a startup now, with aspirations to get big quickly I’d go Open Source, it’ll save you loads over hundreds of web/db servers.
My question is what Virtual Machine (as in JVM vs CLR) will the next big language run on. It seems to be the competition that’s heating up this year. Once we have them then will we see numerous domain specific languages popup. And what about all the cores Intel/AMD keep giving us any ideas what to do with them?
LikeLike
Open Source is great, but proprietary software isn’t all evil by definition. Best tool for the job I say.
Having said that, if I were a startup now, with aspirations to get big quickly I’d go Open Source, it’ll save you loads over hundreds of web/db servers.
My question is what Virtual Machine (as in JVM vs CLR) will the next big language run on. It seems to be the competition that’s heating up this year. Once we have them then will we see numerous domain specific languages popup. And what about all the cores Intel/AMD keep giving us any ideas what to do with them?
LikeLike
I still don’t get the notion of free languages
“The developers of these languages released them under free software licenses. They were not developed under a corporate umbrella with restrictive licenses.”
C#, which by your definition is not a free language. But you can write your own compiler and release the compiler for free. How’s this different from Perl or Ruby?
LikeLike
I still don’t get the notion of free languages
“The developers of these languages released them under free software licenses. They were not developed under a corporate umbrella with restrictive licenses.”
C#, which by your definition is not a free language. But you can write your own compiler and release the compiler for free. How’s this different from Perl or Ruby?
LikeLike
@35,
There are maybe 100 people on the planet that could write a good compiler. I’m deadly serious. Same goes for kernel hackers.
The average programmer is mediocre. Believe me. I’ve worked with dozens of them over the years and read even more about it over those same years.
Good programmers are very rare. Yes, every larger company has a few, but they rarely get to really shine that often since most of them write what they’re told since they need to pay the bills. I’ve heard this time and time again from hackers sick of writing for boring apps and vertical software.
Great programmers are:
Richard Stallman (wrote GCC, emacs, etc.)
Eric Raymond (wrote fetchmail, etc.)
Linus Torvalds (wrote the Linux kernel)
Theo De Raadt (OpenBSD founder, wrote large parts of ssh, pf, etc.)
Miguel de Icaza (wrote mono, large parts of Gnome)
Apple and MS have some good programmers but no one on the scale of the free software guys.
LikeLike
@35,
There are maybe 100 people on the planet that could write a good compiler. I’m deadly serious. Same goes for kernel hackers.
The average programmer is mediocre. Believe me. I’ve worked with dozens of them over the years and read even more about it over those same years.
Good programmers are very rare. Yes, every larger company has a few, but they rarely get to really shine that often since most of them write what they’re told since they need to pay the bills. I’ve heard this time and time again from hackers sick of writing for boring apps and vertical software.
Great programmers are:
Richard Stallman (wrote GCC, emacs, etc.)
Eric Raymond (wrote fetchmail, etc.)
Linus Torvalds (wrote the Linux kernel)
Theo De Raadt (OpenBSD founder, wrote large parts of ssh, pf, etc.)
Miguel de Icaza (wrote mono, large parts of Gnome)
Apple and MS have some good programmers but no one on the scale of the free software guys.
LikeLike
I forgot…
Apple lured away some good BSD hackers when they wrote OS X.
LikeLike
I forgot…
Apple lured away some good BSD hackers when they wrote OS X.
LikeLike
Why isnt PHP used as much as ASP, when PHP is free, easier to learn & faster than ASP. PHP combined with an AJAX or Flash interface provides the ultimate web application.
LikeLike
Why isnt PHP used as much as ASP, when PHP is free, easier to learn & faster than ASP. PHP combined with an AJAX or Flash interface provides the ultimate web application.
LikeLike
When will web applications become more widely used, more powerful & graphically richer than traditional software applications.
LikeLike
When will web applications become more widely used, more powerful & graphically richer than traditional software applications.
LikeLike
And i dont know , if google begins to convert each of the things into a web based application ,
and maybe a NBL on the net , with a net based IDE .
doomed is what we all are .
Alreadyi heard its google is getting its os along with firefox done .
Another , seed to conquer . 😦
hmmm
LikeLike
And i dont know , if google begins to convert each of the things into a web based application ,
and maybe a NBL on the net , with a net based IDE .
doomed is what we all are .
Alreadyi heard its google is getting its os along with firefox done .
Another , seed to conquer . 😦
hmmm
LikeLike
Peter,
heads up—
Bill Gates was a good programmer when he did programming. Even open source people admit it when they look through his old code for things like his BASIC implementation.
—
I don’t do programming regularly, so I’m not very disciplined in some ways and don’t know how to do everything thats low-level, but whether people would want to judge me as a good programmer or not would depend on how you’re doing the judging. I learned to program hobbying in Visual Basic, even though I now know other languages. But this sort of background made me focus on the job differently. I don’t by habit take a very structured approach that you need when you’re creating important programs, although I’m sure I could do this, but I’m very good figuring out programming problems ad-hoc. At a Berkeley CS course in Java within a half an hour I hacked together a program which solved a hard puzzle problem, when for everyone else in the class, including my partner who was a *nix geek, took days to figure out what they were doing. Unfortunately, what I did was spaghetti code, so it had to be redone 🙂 But that to me seems like it should be the easy part. So like I said, it depends what you mean by ‘good programmer’. There are a lot of different talents involved in programming. The last of which, which I don’t think *nix people understand well, is the interface (user interface and otherwise).
LikeLike
Peter,
heads up—
Bill Gates was a good programmer when he did programming. Even open source people admit it when they look through his old code for things like his BASIC implementation.
—
I don’t do programming regularly, so I’m not very disciplined in some ways and don’t know how to do everything thats low-level, but whether people would want to judge me as a good programmer or not would depend on how you’re doing the judging. I learned to program hobbying in Visual Basic, even though I now know other languages. But this sort of background made me focus on the job differently. I don’t by habit take a very structured approach that you need when you’re creating important programs, although I’m sure I could do this, but I’m very good figuring out programming problems ad-hoc. At a Berkeley CS course in Java within a half an hour I hacked together a program which solved a hard puzzle problem, when for everyone else in the class, including my partner who was a *nix geek, took days to figure out what they were doing. Unfortunately, what I did was spaghetti code, so it had to be redone 🙂 But that to me seems like it should be the easy part. So like I said, it depends what you mean by ‘good programmer’. There are a lot of different talents involved in programming. The last of which, which I don’t think *nix people understand well, is the interface (user interface and otherwise).
LikeLike
@41,
Brian, I agree with a lot of what you say. There ARE many talents to programming. You have to be a good abstract thinker as well as one who feels comfortable with structure. good programmers need to be able to think “out of the box”, as you did when you solved that puzzle. Kudos.
*nix people are not all that when it comes to writing good interfaces. I readily admit this. I think part of the reason for this is that so many of us live in the command line rather than in the GUI. The reverse is true in Windows. The Windows command line is pitiful in comparison to that in *nix as anyone with any experience in both will tell you.
I do quite a bit of work in the command line (CLI). I work with routers and switches, Linux, FreeBSD, etc. The *nix command line is just so powerful.
The *nix world does suffer from a lack of “good” GUIs, but this is changing rapidly. You should really check out what KDE has done with its latest release. Gnome is a little slower to come clean, but I prefer it because it’s elegantly simple.
Most *nix types prefer minimalist simplicity with no eye candy. Since *nix is primarily a server OS still, X is rather useless to most admins, hence most GUIs look primitive to Windows users.
LikeLike
@41,
Brian, I agree with a lot of what you say. There ARE many talents to programming. You have to be a good abstract thinker as well as one who feels comfortable with structure. good programmers need to be able to think “out of the box”, as you did when you solved that puzzle. Kudos.
*nix people are not all that when it comes to writing good interfaces. I readily admit this. I think part of the reason for this is that so many of us live in the command line rather than in the GUI. The reverse is true in Windows. The Windows command line is pitiful in comparison to that in *nix as anyone with any experience in both will tell you.
I do quite a bit of work in the command line (CLI). I work with routers and switches, Linux, FreeBSD, etc. The *nix command line is just so powerful.
The *nix world does suffer from a lack of “good” GUIs, but this is changing rapidly. You should really check out what KDE has done with its latest release. Gnome is a little slower to come clean, but I prefer it because it’s elegantly simple.
Most *nix types prefer minimalist simplicity with no eye candy. Since *nix is primarily a server OS still, X is rather useless to most admins, hence most GUIs look primitive to Windows users.
LikeLike
I must respectfully disagree with you, Peter. The Windows platform has PowerShell (formerly codenamed Monad) available for download which completely supplants the (frankly crappy) standard command-line interpreter. It’s astonishingly powerful, well documented and a joy to use; making the plethora of *nix shells look a little obsolete IMHO.
What is a “free” language? C# has an open ECMA standard; so the language itself could be implemented without charge by anyone (and indeed has been, such as in the excellent Mono port to Linux). The bare command-line compiler is part of the freely downloadable .NET framework, and there is a highly competent IDE (C# Express edition) freely downloadable from MSDN. None of these have any restrictions on use as far as I’m aware. It’s also a very nice language with an immaculate pedigree; the designer was Anders Hejlsberg, who designed Turbo Pascal and Borland Delphi. Surely he’d have to figure highly in your 100 top-notch programmers?
I’m no Microsoft fanboy (far from it actually), but I’ve got to pay respect where it’s due. C# and .NET have evolved into an outstanding development platform.
LikeLike
I must respectfully disagree with you, Peter. The Windows platform has PowerShell (formerly codenamed Monad) available for download which completely supplants the (frankly crappy) standard command-line interpreter. It’s astonishingly powerful, well documented and a joy to use; making the plethora of *nix shells look a little obsolete IMHO.
What is a “free” language? C# has an open ECMA standard; so the language itself could be implemented without charge by anyone (and indeed has been, such as in the excellent Mono port to Linux). The bare command-line compiler is part of the freely downloadable .NET framework, and there is a highly competent IDE (C# Express edition) freely downloadable from MSDN. None of these have any restrictions on use as far as I’m aware. It’s also a very nice language with an immaculate pedigree; the designer was Anders Hejlsberg, who designed Turbo Pascal and Borland Delphi. Surely he’d have to figure highly in your 100 top-notch programmers?
I’m no Microsoft fanboy (far from it actually), but I’ve got to pay respect where it’s due. C# and .NET have evolved into an outstanding development platform.
LikeLike
PS. I prefer the Gnome UI to Vista any day of the week… The irony is painful ;-))
LikeLike
PS. I prefer the Gnome UI to Vista any day of the week… The irony is painful ;-))
LikeLike