Windows Vista vs. OSX debate now up

OK, if you like short videos you won’t like these. Move along. Click “J” if you’re using Google Reader.

But, if you’re a real freak like me you’ll probably enjoy two hours of Mac vs. Windows Vista debates with four experts. I love how Maryam ends the second video.

Fred Davis has the details. Yes, we’ve posted about four hours of videos with me and Fred in them in the past two days.

I invited four geeks, representing both sides of the OS aisle. First is Fred Davis, co-founder of Wired Magazine. Second is Harry McCracken, editor in chief of PC World. Third is Sam Levin, founder of Stanford Mac User Group, among other Mac things. Fourth is Jeremy Toeman who worked at Sling Media when I first met him.

This was filmed in my living room. I’m rewatching it now and it’s actually quite fun. Hope you enjoy it, even though it’s two hours long.

It took a while to get into the Windows Vista stuff that’s good (the second hour has more of that, including discussion of .NET 3.0 and what’s good about that). If you actually do watch the video you’ll get quite a bit of historical context behind why these two operating systems have the business positions they do.

I split this up into two parts. Here’s the first hour, and here’s the second.

Congrats to Microsoft on shipping Windows Vista. We did this debate just for you.

UPDATE: Daily Kos has 700 comments on a debate about whether you are a conservative or a liberal just because of your OS choice.

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205 Replies to “Windows Vista vs. OSX debate now up”

  1. Well, I enjoyed the first hour. Onward to the second (it’s 4:45am where I am, by the way, and I am sitting here watching this video). This is a great group. I hope you can get these guys together again for some more discussions–I even enjoyed the tangents.

    One suggestion: get some lapel mics. It is especially difficult to hear you from behind the camera, Robert (particularly on crappy laptop speakers).

    Like

  2. Well, I enjoyed the first hour. Onward to the second (it’s 4:45am where I am, by the way, and I am sitting here watching this video). This is a great group. I hope you can get these guys together again for some more discussions–I even enjoyed the tangents.

    One suggestion: get some lapel mics. It is especially difficult to hear you from behind the camera, Robert (particularly on crappy laptop speakers).

    Like

  3. Josh: I’m listening too. I have crappy speakers too. It’s interesting that you say you have a hard time hearing me. I don’t have a hard time hearing on my system. Weird.

    Lapel mics are VERY hard to deal with when you have five or six people.

    Like

  4. Josh: I’m listening too. I have crappy speakers too. It’s interesting that you say you have a hard time hearing me. I don’t have a hard time hearing on my system. Weird.

    Lapel mics are VERY hard to deal with when you have five or six people.

    Like

  5. I personally like Windows Vista better. But I am not impressed that it took so many years to produce and during that time Mac had a more stable and secure operating system.

    Mac is great! Don’t get me wrong… but the reality of the situation is that Windows is installed into I would guess 8 out of 10 personal computers… It’s probably 9 out of 10… but I will say 8.

    Windows is the most popular operating system. If it is the best one to use… I don’t know? I just know that I enjoy using it and I am more comfortable using Windows over Mac because of how many countless hours, days, week, months, and years I have used Windows.

    Like

  6. I personally like Windows Vista better. But I am not impressed that it took so many years to produce and during that time Mac had a more stable and secure operating system.

    Mac is great! Don’t get me wrong… but the reality of the situation is that Windows is installed into I would guess 8 out of 10 personal computers… It’s probably 9 out of 10… but I will say 8.

    Windows is the most popular operating system. If it is the best one to use… I don’t know? I just know that I enjoy using it and I am more comfortable using Windows over Mac because of how many countless hours, days, week, months, and years I have used Windows.

    Like

  7. It actually took MS 2 and one half years to create Vista after they had to start from scratch, when they realised that basing Vista on the XP kernel would’t work, but thats ok, I love Vista and will be upgrading my hardware to take advantage.

    Like

  8. It actually took MS 2 and one half years to create Vista after they had to start from scratch, when they realised that basing Vista on the XP kernel would’t work, but thats ok, I love Vista and will be upgrading my hardware to take advantage.

    Like

  9. I loved it.

    Robert, I think your content is great, but I think you have to make it available in other formats. WMV would be great, so I could just download it onto my Media Center and watch it while I’m having dinner.

    Watching 2 hours of video, flash size, on my desktop PC is not confortable. I enjoyed it, but I won’t watch this kind of video on my desktop PC again.

    I actually download Channel 9 and On10.net videos to my Media Center a lot, and that’s confortable.

    Like

  10. I loved it.

    Robert, I think your content is great, but I think you have to make it available in other formats. WMV would be great, so I could just download it onto my Media Center and watch it while I’m having dinner.

    Watching 2 hours of video, flash size, on my desktop PC is not confortable. I enjoyed it, but I won’t watch this kind of video on my desktop PC again.

    I actually download Channel 9 and On10.net videos to my Media Center a lot, and that’s confortable.

    Like

  11. I second that.

    Would be really good to get WMV/QT of all videos, but these especially.

    Looks like its gonna be a fun old time 😀

    Like

  12. I second that.

    Would be really good to get WMV/QT of all videos, but these especially.

    Looks like its gonna be a fun old time 😀

    Like

  13. Well, the second video lived up the hype. Thoroughly enjoyable stuff.

    Robert, perhaps it is just these speakers (the speakers on this new VAIO are even worse than the ones on my old Dell). What if Maryam just held a boom mic the whole time? 😉 (kidding, kidding)

    Like

  14. Well, the second video lived up the hype. Thoroughly enjoyable stuff.

    Robert, perhaps it is just these speakers (the speakers on this new VAIO are even worse than the ones on my old Dell). What if Maryam just held a boom mic the whole time? 😉 (kidding, kidding)

    Like

  15. The MS marketing dept. made a big mistake on the prices for the UK (and Europe), 2x the price of the US prices! Not a good way to encourage people to upgrade or prevent them from moving over to OSX. After the years of R&D spend I would have thought MS would be keen to see a large uptake on the product to get some return. Big debate on BBC website about it at the moment (1.5K comments), plus Mr Gates was asked the price diff questions on UK news as he is over here at the moment but was unclear on the reasons, usual exchange rate/packaging rubbish (let us download on a global basis, only need a key via email!).

    http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5388&&edition=2&ttl=20070131122023

    Like

  16. The MS marketing dept. made a big mistake on the prices for the UK (and Europe), 2x the price of the US prices! Not a good way to encourage people to upgrade or prevent them from moving over to OSX. After the years of R&D spend I would have thought MS would be keen to see a large uptake on the product to get some return. Big debate on BBC website about it at the moment (1.5K comments), plus Mr Gates was asked the price diff questions on UK news as he is over here at the moment but was unclear on the reasons, usual exchange rate/packaging rubbish (let us download on a global basis, only need a key via email!).

    http://newsforums.bbc.co.uk/nol/thread.jspa?threadID=5388&&edition=2&ttl=20070131122023

    Like

  17. Garry Conn makes the same old mistake regarding the meaning of the word ‘Popular’.

    Popular means – “liked, admired, or enjoyed by many people or by a particular person or group”.

    Windows is by no stretch of the imagination LIKED or ENJOYED 🙂

    What Garry Conn probably meant to say is Windows is the most common operating system.

    It would therefore be accurate to say that common in this context means – occurring, found, or done often; prevalent. This would indeed apply to Windows.

    However one could equally use the following alternate meanings for common when describing Windows.

    Common – ordinary; of ordinary qualities
    Common – showing a lack of taste and refinement

    Or

    Common as muck

    But absolutely, positively, definitely, not Popular.

    Like

  18. Garry Conn makes the same old mistake regarding the meaning of the word ‘Popular’.

    Popular means – “liked, admired, or enjoyed by many people or by a particular person or group”.

    Windows is by no stretch of the imagination LIKED or ENJOYED 🙂

    What Garry Conn probably meant to say is Windows is the most common operating system.

    It would therefore be accurate to say that common in this context means – occurring, found, or done often; prevalent. This would indeed apply to Windows.

    However one could equally use the following alternate meanings for common when describing Windows.

    Common – ordinary; of ordinary qualities
    Common – showing a lack of taste and refinement

    Or

    Common as muck

    But absolutely, positively, definitely, not Popular.

    Like

  19. I will be interested in seeing another conversation once Leopard is out, so that we can hear about the newest features and distinctions, rather than ancient history. Get Dan Dilger (Roughly Drafted); he would be a more elequent and insightful advocate from the Mac side. The Vista guys were doing just fine.

    Like

  20. I will be interested in seeing another conversation once Leopard is out, so that we can hear about the newest features and distinctions, rather than ancient history. Get Dan Dilger (Roughly Drafted); he would be a more elequent and insightful advocate from the Mac side. The Vista guys were doing just fine.

    Like

  21. Don’t do it as WMV OR QuickTime. For the love of dog, use MPEG-4. Everyone can view it. It’s universal, and while not as pretty as h.264, it’s not as hardware intensive either.

    But dude…you get the head of a MUG on one side and the editor in chief of PC World on the other?

    Because I hear there’s this magazine called “Macworld”, who has an editor in chief named Jason Snell, who, from rumor, can, on occasion, hold a discussion or two, and even has.

    There’s also John Gruber, from Daring Fireball, http://daringfireball.net/ who is quite good, and fun to listen to as well.

    Like

  22. Don’t do it as WMV OR QuickTime. For the love of dog, use MPEG-4. Everyone can view it. It’s universal, and while not as pretty as h.264, it’s not as hardware intensive either.

    But dude…you get the head of a MUG on one side and the editor in chief of PC World on the other?

    Because I hear there’s this magazine called “Macworld”, who has an editor in chief named Jason Snell, who, from rumor, can, on occasion, hold a discussion or two, and even has.

    There’s also John Gruber, from Daring Fireball, http://daringfireball.net/ who is quite good, and fun to listen to as well.

    Like

  23. Yeah, Microsoft won, that’s why Ballmer craps his drawers when you say “Linux” and has to threaten to sue Linux users to keep his lead.

    I’m sure IBM thought they had won circa 1981 or so.

    Like

  24. Yeah, Microsoft won, that’s why Ballmer craps his drawers when you say “Linux” and has to threaten to sue Linux users to keep his lead.

    I’m sure IBM thought they had won circa 1981 or so.

    Like

  25. John: you obviously didn’t listen to the two hours of tape. If you had, you wouldn’t be asking for more representation of the Mac side of the fence. It was Windows Vista day and even Harry McCracken admitted he uses a Mac.

    But, yeah, it would be fun to have a conversation with the ones you recommended too. I hear Apple has something new coming out soon, so that’ll be an opportunity to pull out more Mac-oriented people there too.

    Like

  26. John: you obviously didn’t listen to the two hours of tape. If you had, you wouldn’t be asking for more representation of the Mac side of the fence. It was Windows Vista day and even Harry McCracken admitted he uses a Mac.

    But, yeah, it would be fun to have a conversation with the ones you recommended too. I hear Apple has something new coming out soon, so that’ll be an opportunity to pull out more Mac-oriented people there too.

    Like

  27. Robert, you are also equating common with popular. Yes Windows is common all around the world but far, far fewer people LIKE it.

    Here are some articles that would seem to suggest people have not been trampled in the rush (for Vista).

    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070130/microsoft_vista_launch.html?.v=25
    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Microsoft-Vista-Launch.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
    http://news.com.com/Vistas+actual+launch+Think+whisper%2C+not+bang/2100-1016_3-6154473.html

    Compare the above to the Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger launch see http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,67398,00.html which says “On Friday, April 29, more than 1,000 people queued up for the Tiger launch in both the Tokyo and London Apple stores”. Remember there are are far fewer Mac users than Windows, and yet the queues were over ten times as long as the [allegedly] long queue in Phoenix you referred to. THAT’S being popular (if not common).

    Note to Robert, while you may deduce I am a Mac user I do also run Microsoft Media Center 2005 on one of my own computers and have used Windows since 3.0. As a Mac user I would willing agree MCE 2005 is currently superior to Front Row and Apple TV, however the DRM in Vista Media Center is so user hostile I have been put off upgrading to it (not to mention – ok I will mention the fact it costs twice as much here in the UK).

    Like

  28. Robert, you are also equating common with popular. Yes Windows is common all around the world but far, far fewer people LIKE it.

    Here are some articles that would seem to suggest people have not been trampled in the rush (for Vista).

    http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/070130/microsoft_vista_launch.html?.v=25
    http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/technology/AP-Microsoft-Vista-Launch.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin
    http://news.com.com/Vistas+actual+launch+Think+whisper%2C+not+bang/2100-1016_3-6154473.html

    Compare the above to the Mac OS X 10.4 Tiger launch see http://www.wired.com/news/mac/0,2125,67398,00.html which says “On Friday, April 29, more than 1,000 people queued up for the Tiger launch in both the Tokyo and London Apple stores”. Remember there are are far fewer Mac users than Windows, and yet the queues were over ten times as long as the [allegedly] long queue in Phoenix you referred to. THAT’S being popular (if not common).

    Note to Robert, while you may deduce I am a Mac user I do also run Microsoft Media Center 2005 on one of my own computers and have used Windows since 3.0. As a Mac user I would willing agree MCE 2005 is currently superior to Front Row and Apple TV, however the DRM in Vista Media Center is so user hostile I have been put off upgrading to it (not to mention – ok I will mention the fact it costs twice as much here in the UK).

    Like

  29. John: you obviously didn’t listen to the two hours of tape. If you had, you wouldn’t be asking for more representation of the Mac side of the fence. It was Windows Vista day and even Harry McCracken admitted he uses a Mac.

    No Robert, oddly enough, after the first five minutes, listening to the rest of it would have made me slit my wrists. Since that would have adversely affected my wedding, I stopped listening.

    As well, Harry McCraken “admitting” he uses a Mac is not the same thing as having the EIC of an actual Mac – focused publication on. Everyone knows Wired, PC World, and to a lesser extent Sling. But outside of the local MUG community, no one knows who the hell Sam Levin is, so regardless of your intent, you gave the appearance of stacking the deck.

    But, yeah, it would be fun to have a conversation with the ones you recommended too. I hear Apple has something new coming out soon, so that’ll be an opportunity to pull out more Mac-oriented people there too.

    At this point, pardon my lack of belief that you’re going to actually do anything differently.

    Like

  30. John: you obviously didn’t listen to the two hours of tape. If you had, you wouldn’t be asking for more representation of the Mac side of the fence. It was Windows Vista day and even Harry McCracken admitted he uses a Mac.

    No Robert, oddly enough, after the first five minutes, listening to the rest of it would have made me slit my wrists. Since that would have adversely affected my wedding, I stopped listening.

    As well, Harry McCraken “admitting” he uses a Mac is not the same thing as having the EIC of an actual Mac – focused publication on. Everyone knows Wired, PC World, and to a lesser extent Sling. But outside of the local MUG community, no one knows who the hell Sam Levin is, so regardless of your intent, you gave the appearance of stacking the deck.

    But, yeah, it would be fun to have a conversation with the ones you recommended too. I hear Apple has something new coming out soon, so that’ll be an opportunity to pull out more Mac-oriented people there too.

    At this point, pardon my lack of belief that you’re going to actually do anything differently.

    Like

  31. All things considered, it would be an interesting comparison if OSX were running as well on a system made with off the shelf parts.

    Like

  32. All things considered, it would be an interesting comparison if OSX were running as well on a system made with off the shelf parts.

    Like

  33. You mean as well as cars made from off the shelf parts and TV’s made from off the shelf parts? I hear those are soooo popular. Not.

    I’m sure BMW would have problems of microsofts proportions if they had to support Kia, Hyundai, Daiwoo, Mercedes, Nissan, GM, whathaveyou engines in their cars.

    Like

  34. You mean as well as cars made from off the shelf parts and TV’s made from off the shelf parts? I hear those are soooo popular. Not.

    I’m sure BMW would have problems of microsofts proportions if they had to support Kia, Hyundai, Daiwoo, Mercedes, Nissan, GM, whathaveyou engines in their cars.

    Like

  35. “Don’t do it as WMV OR QuickTime. For the love of dog, use MPEG-4. Everyone can view it. It’s universal, and while not as pretty as h.264, it’s not as hardware intensive either.”

    Thank you. It’s mind-blowing that a mere commenter has more common sense than most of these self-proclaimed new media mavens.

    Like

  36. “Don’t do it as WMV OR QuickTime. For the love of dog, use MPEG-4. Everyone can view it. It’s universal, and while not as pretty as h.264, it’s not as hardware intensive either.”

    Thank you. It’s mind-blowing that a mere commenter has more common sense than most of these self-proclaimed new media mavens.

    Like

  37. A few observations…

    Interesting to see the confusion over Apple reliability vs Windows. OS X has had a tremendous impact on the perception. Windows has become more reliable too. If Apple were still running the old OS 9 and previous based code they would be totally irrelevant now.

    Even so, a huge percentage of the new Apple laptops have this rebooting/overheating/noisy fan problem and considering the controlled nature of the Apple ecosystem this is totally unacceptable.

    The notion that people buying Apple laptops to run Windows one hundred percent of the time CAN’T be good for Apple in the long run. At some point (probably the next laptop purchase) such a user figures out they can get everything they need for half the price.

    Is there something about being the center guy on a couch that keeps one from having anything to say? Or is it just that Apple doesn’t have any response in place to .NET? (I’m still not sure what the official designation is.) For Linux, there is a .NET equivalent coming along, but I’m not sure if there is anything for OS X. In spite of Microsoft’s willingness to share the .NET specs with standards groups this looks like yet another attempt to embrace and extinguish the Internet by flooding the market with .NET shareware that will only work if you have a Windows machine. I think hypoglycemia had set in when you all seemed to agree that commercial Internet sites would be assuming enough people are running Vista in early 2008 (as the guy on the left said). The uptake of Vista, via new PC purchases or otherwise won’t move nearly that fast, and I don’t think even Microsoft is predicting such a thing. But still .NET CAN represent a future threat to anyone not running Windows.

    Apple came up with Widgets for the desktop, made them easier to write and they were a big hit for a while. But I find them too disruptive and hardly use mine any more. Windows came up with Gadgets, and supposedly with .NET in Vista they will be even easier to code. But of course BOTH of these companies are trying to lock people in to what they are doing rather than let the Widgets or Gadgets stand on their own. Leave it to Open Source to develop desktop utilities that will work on everyone machine, be yet again easier to code. And it will happen.

    As the guy on the left said at the end, paraphrasing: “I don’t want to be dependent on what Apple comes out with when I go to configure my next PC purchase”. And as you said Scoble, competition between these two companies benefits all of us users.

    What I didn’t hear from any of you was some sense of consumer backbone that says: We won’t accept these lock-in technologies as “good-enough” any more. If the thought-leaders in our industry won’t speak out against these unethical practices then who will? What will benefit consumers the most is not just these two companies competing but dozens of such companies. That is why the Web is so exciting right now. Google may be big, but they don’t take every new product announcement as an opportunity to cut off competition. I’m fed up with companies that do, and I hope more of you pundits will take that attitude too. Do it for the users.

    Like

  38. A few observations…

    Interesting to see the confusion over Apple reliability vs Windows. OS X has had a tremendous impact on the perception. Windows has become more reliable too. If Apple were still running the old OS 9 and previous based code they would be totally irrelevant now.

    Even so, a huge percentage of the new Apple laptops have this rebooting/overheating/noisy fan problem and considering the controlled nature of the Apple ecosystem this is totally unacceptable.

    The notion that people buying Apple laptops to run Windows one hundred percent of the time CAN’T be good for Apple in the long run. At some point (probably the next laptop purchase) such a user figures out they can get everything they need for half the price.

    Is there something about being the center guy on a couch that keeps one from having anything to say? Or is it just that Apple doesn’t have any response in place to .NET? (I’m still not sure what the official designation is.) For Linux, there is a .NET equivalent coming along, but I’m not sure if there is anything for OS X. In spite of Microsoft’s willingness to share the .NET specs with standards groups this looks like yet another attempt to embrace and extinguish the Internet by flooding the market with .NET shareware that will only work if you have a Windows machine. I think hypoglycemia had set in when you all seemed to agree that commercial Internet sites would be assuming enough people are running Vista in early 2008 (as the guy on the left said). The uptake of Vista, via new PC purchases or otherwise won’t move nearly that fast, and I don’t think even Microsoft is predicting such a thing. But still .NET CAN represent a future threat to anyone not running Windows.

    Apple came up with Widgets for the desktop, made them easier to write and they were a big hit for a while. But I find them too disruptive and hardly use mine any more. Windows came up with Gadgets, and supposedly with .NET in Vista they will be even easier to code. But of course BOTH of these companies are trying to lock people in to what they are doing rather than let the Widgets or Gadgets stand on their own. Leave it to Open Source to develop desktop utilities that will work on everyone machine, be yet again easier to code. And it will happen.

    As the guy on the left said at the end, paraphrasing: “I don’t want to be dependent on what Apple comes out with when I go to configure my next PC purchase”. And as you said Scoble, competition between these two companies benefits all of us users.

    What I didn’t hear from any of you was some sense of consumer backbone that says: We won’t accept these lock-in technologies as “good-enough” any more. If the thought-leaders in our industry won’t speak out against these unethical practices then who will? What will benefit consumers the most is not just these two companies competing but dozens of such companies. That is why the Web is so exciting right now. Google may be big, but they don’t take every new product announcement as an opportunity to cut off competition. I’m fed up with companies that do, and I hope more of you pundits will take that attitude too. Do it for the users.

    Like

  39. Even so, a huge percentage of the new Apple laptops have this rebooting/overheating/noisy fan problem and considering the controlled nature of the Apple ecosystem this is totally unacceptable.

    You have an actual verified/verifiable number on that? Since it’s “huge” that is.

    What I didn’t hear from any of you was some sense of consumer backbone that says: We won’t accept these lock-in technologies as “good-enough” any more.

    You going to give us details on your 100% open source, open format, non-proprietare software AND hardware setup?

    Like

  40. Even so, a huge percentage of the new Apple laptops have this rebooting/overheating/noisy fan problem and considering the controlled nature of the Apple ecosystem this is totally unacceptable.

    You have an actual verified/verifiable number on that? Since it’s “huge” that is.

    What I didn’t hear from any of you was some sense of consumer backbone that says: We won’t accept these lock-in technologies as “good-enough” any more.

    You going to give us details on your 100% open source, open format, non-proprietare software AND hardware setup?

    Like

  41. Did you remember us, the deaf and hard of hearing viewers since you had invitited us to listen the debates. We can’t understand you without having a closed captioned, opened captioned (subtitles).

    Disappointed Deaf Viewers

    Like

  42. Did you remember us, the deaf and hard of hearing viewers since you had invitited us to listen the debates. We can’t understand you without having a closed captioned, opened captioned (subtitles).

    Disappointed Deaf Viewers

    Like

  43. In defense of Harry McCracken, not only is he a really good guy, but he knows both Vista and the Mac — Vista because he’s the editor of PC World, for Pete’s sake, but the Mac because he is a longtime Mac user as well. He’s got a MacBook now, but before the Intel Mac days he had a 12-inch PowerBook. That sort of perspective is especially useful when it comes to talking about this stuff.

    I can explain the Mac perspective, sure, but I’ve yet to even touch a copy of Windows Vista. (Although I’ll be buying one soon and installing it on my copy of Parallels.)

    Like

  44. In defense of Harry McCracken, not only is he a really good guy, but he knows both Vista and the Mac — Vista because he’s the editor of PC World, for Pete’s sake, but the Mac because he is a longtime Mac user as well. He’s got a MacBook now, but before the Intel Mac days he had a 12-inch PowerBook. That sort of perspective is especially useful when it comes to talking about this stuff.

    I can explain the Mac perspective, sure, but I’ve yet to even touch a copy of Windows Vista. (Although I’ll be buying one soon and installing it on my copy of Parallels.)

    Like

  45. Looks like a Windows masturbation session. All giddy that they’ve finally caught up… so catchng up = better….. because that is what they use.

    Like

  46. Looks like a Windows masturbation session. All giddy that they’ve finally caught up… so catchng up = better….. because that is what they use.

    Like

  47. I did like Gates squirming in his chair when asked whether he was going for an OS X look with Vista. Very amusing.

    Vista is the first with parental controls? I think Bill needs to go in to Accounts in OS X and have a look there. There’s a tab called “Parental Controls”.

    Like

  48. I did like Gates squirming in his chair when asked whether he was going for an OS X look with Vista. Very amusing.

    Vista is the first with parental controls? I think Bill needs to go in to Accounts in OS X and have a look there. There’s a tab called “Parental Controls”.

    Like

  49. I don’t doubt that Harry knows his stuff, considering his career. However, impression counts, as Robert should well know by now, considering how he’s railed about it with regard to Microsoft in the past.

    When you see EIC of PC World, Wired Magazine, (best known in the Mac community for Leander Kahney’s ongoing “Cult of Mac” series, and trust me, it ain’t makin’ him friends. Truth be told, there’s a ton of Mac folks that refuse to talk to him after seeing how he angles everything he publishes.), the former sling guy, who point blank favors Windows, and the guy who founded the Stanford MUG, and Robert who, regardless of employer is still one of the biggest Windows fanbois on the Intarweb, that doesn’t exactly create a balanced impression.

    Considering that damned near right away, Robert has the thing degenerate into who has the most uptime, (which is as meaningless as ROI. I had Mac OS 8.X servers with 24 month uptimes. So the whole “pre Mac OS X wasn’t stable” thing is both correct and incorrect.), and then some rambling history of Mac OS X, which for some reason made Microsoft out to be the best friend Apple had, yet oddly, left out some of the OTHER side of that history, like Gates personally threatening Sculley with pulling all MS support for the Mac if the proposed AppleBasic for the Mac wasn’t killed, the threats about QuickTime, etc.

    Once it degenerated into people saying “WIndows is better because you can get a PC cheaper”, I punched out. It was either that or slit my wrists.

    Regardless of which you like better, this was the same lame – assed debate that you see in every damned advocacy forum and chatroom on the internet, and quite honestly, Robert pretty much guaranteed it with the way he set this up.

    This wasn’t an “intelligent debate”, this was yet another friggin’ advocacy argument.

    Next time, just call it, “Yet Another Advocacy War at Robert’s House”. It’ll be more honest.

    Like

  50. I don’t doubt that Harry knows his stuff, considering his career. However, impression counts, as Robert should well know by now, considering how he’s railed about it with regard to Microsoft in the past.

    When you see EIC of PC World, Wired Magazine, (best known in the Mac community for Leander Kahney’s ongoing “Cult of Mac” series, and trust me, it ain’t makin’ him friends. Truth be told, there’s a ton of Mac folks that refuse to talk to him after seeing how he angles everything he publishes.), the former sling guy, who point blank favors Windows, and the guy who founded the Stanford MUG, and Robert who, regardless of employer is still one of the biggest Windows fanbois on the Intarweb, that doesn’t exactly create a balanced impression.

    Considering that damned near right away, Robert has the thing degenerate into who has the most uptime, (which is as meaningless as ROI. I had Mac OS 8.X servers with 24 month uptimes. So the whole “pre Mac OS X wasn’t stable” thing is both correct and incorrect.), and then some rambling history of Mac OS X, which for some reason made Microsoft out to be the best friend Apple had, yet oddly, left out some of the OTHER side of that history, like Gates personally threatening Sculley with pulling all MS support for the Mac if the proposed AppleBasic for the Mac wasn’t killed, the threats about QuickTime, etc.

    Once it degenerated into people saying “WIndows is better because you can get a PC cheaper”, I punched out. It was either that or slit my wrists.

    Regardless of which you like better, this was the same lame – assed debate that you see in every damned advocacy forum and chatroom on the internet, and quite honestly, Robert pretty much guaranteed it with the way he set this up.

    This wasn’t an “intelligent debate”, this was yet another friggin’ advocacy argument.

    Next time, just call it, “Yet Another Advocacy War at Robert’s House”. It’ll be more honest.

    Like

  51. Robert, thanks for the reply. And for the video. I look forward to an apples to windows comparison between vista and leopard.

    Here’s a question: MS admittedly has won the corporate OS war; it’s hard to come by a PC that doesn’t have its OS preloaded. So that’s it. Fine. Game over.

    On the other hand, I have friends, regular blokes, not geeks, who have suffered miserably at the hands of MS, simply because of viruses on their computers at home. It must be the number 1 problem that computer users face. My experience? I have run Macs at home since 1985 without once having that issue. That’s going on twenty years! The only viruses I have EVER encountered happened at work, where they ran an MS network.

    So, here’s the question: If someone asked for a recommendation on a regular (read, write) home computer, how can anyone push MS in good conscience? And in this same good conscience, how could anyone NOT mention the, relatively speaking, spectacular security of the Apple OS X?

    And yet I heard and didn’t hear just that on this video. And I hear and don’t hear it ALL the time from experts. Come on, guys! Even if we wanted and hoped and believed that Vista will be much, much better on security issues, doesn’t that remain to be demonstrated?

    Like

  52. Robert, thanks for the reply. And for the video. I look forward to an apples to windows comparison between vista and leopard.

    Here’s a question: MS admittedly has won the corporate OS war; it’s hard to come by a PC that doesn’t have its OS preloaded. So that’s it. Fine. Game over.

    On the other hand, I have friends, regular blokes, not geeks, who have suffered miserably at the hands of MS, simply because of viruses on their computers at home. It must be the number 1 problem that computer users face. My experience? I have run Macs at home since 1985 without once having that issue. That’s going on twenty years! The only viruses I have EVER encountered happened at work, where they ran an MS network.

    So, here’s the question: If someone asked for a recommendation on a regular (read, write) home computer, how can anyone push MS in good conscience? And in this same good conscience, how could anyone NOT mention the, relatively speaking, spectacular security of the Apple OS X?

    And yet I heard and didn’t hear just that on this video. And I hear and don’t hear it ALL the time from experts. Come on, guys! Even if we wanted and hoped and believed that Vista will be much, much better on security issues, doesn’t that remain to be demonstrated?

    Like

  53. >I have run Macs at home since 1985 without once having that issue.

    I had one virus using Windows and that was back at Fawcette Technical Publications back in the 1990s. Turns out that viruses aren’t as common as you might expect anymore on Windows side of the fence (and Vista has far far far better security). And I’m on the Internet every single minute of every single day.

    Like

  54. >I have run Macs at home since 1985 without once having that issue.

    I had one virus using Windows and that was back at Fawcette Technical Publications back in the 1990s. Turns out that viruses aren’t as common as you might expect anymore on Windows side of the fence (and Vista has far far far better security). And I’m on the Internet every single minute of every single day.

    Like

  55. Um…no, Windows malware is just as common as ever, and the latest “Storm” outbreak is yet another example.

    As well, Vista’s “Security by annoying the shit out of you and locking you out of your system until you deal with a dialog box” isn’t security, it’s just their solution to the Registry problem applied to Security.

    Did you remember us, the deaf and hard of hearing viewers since you had invitited us to listen the debates. We can’t understand you without having a closed captioned, opened captioned (subtitles).

    Disappointed Deaf Viewers

    It’s a valid point Robert, regardless of how much work it is. Or is your brave new HD world only for those who can hear and see.

    Like

  56. Um…no, Windows malware is just as common as ever, and the latest “Storm” outbreak is yet another example.

    As well, Vista’s “Security by annoying the shit out of you and locking you out of your system until you deal with a dialog box” isn’t security, it’s just their solution to the Registry problem applied to Security.

    Did you remember us, the deaf and hard of hearing viewers since you had invitited us to listen the debates. We can’t understand you without having a closed captioned, opened captioned (subtitles).

    Disappointed Deaf Viewers

    It’s a valid point Robert, regardless of how much work it is. Or is your brave new HD world only for those who can hear and see.

    Like

  57. Yes, it is a very valid point, but is hanging in my priority list waiting for more employees/resources along with making shorter videos (hiring more editors, etc), two cameras with camera people, better microphones and an audio guy so people can hear, etc. It’s definitely on my list to get to.

    The dialog box? Everytime I try to install something on my new Mac it asks for my user name and password too.

    But the problem it is trying to solve has nothing to do with the registry and everything to do with the fact that Windows used to let you run in administrator mode by default.

    In Windows Vista you can’t run in administrator mode. That alone is a HUGE advance for Windows security.

    Like

  58. Yes, it is a very valid point, but is hanging in my priority list waiting for more employees/resources along with making shorter videos (hiring more editors, etc), two cameras with camera people, better microphones and an audio guy so people can hear, etc. It’s definitely on my list to get to.

    The dialog box? Everytime I try to install something on my new Mac it asks for my user name and password too.

    But the problem it is trying to solve has nothing to do with the registry and everything to do with the fact that Windows used to let you run in administrator mode by default.

    In Windows Vista you can’t run in administrator mode. That alone is a HUGE advance for Windows security.

    Like

  59. I’m watching the first video, and viewing a bunch of tired old tribal wisdom. Geez, Apple is a freakin’ hardware company; they lose totally if they support OSX on PCs. Also, the entire DRM jive….that users are locked into Apple’s propietary DRM…is even worse with Microsoft. At least, the Apple ecosystem is more user friendly and seamless.

    Something else worth considering that is a huge differentiator between Windows and Mac systems: I can easily create a bootable exact clone of my OSX system to external firewire drive and take that firewire drive, connect it to almost any other current Mac and boot it up. I can’t do that with my XP systems…a big downer!

    Like

  60. I’m watching the first video, and viewing a bunch of tired old tribal wisdom. Geez, Apple is a freakin’ hardware company; they lose totally if they support OSX on PCs. Also, the entire DRM jive….that users are locked into Apple’s propietary DRM…is even worse with Microsoft. At least, the Apple ecosystem is more user friendly and seamless.

    Something else worth considering that is a huge differentiator between Windows and Mac systems: I can easily create a bootable exact clone of my OSX system to external firewire drive and take that firewire drive, connect it to almost any other current Mac and boot it up. I can’t do that with my XP systems…a big downer!

    Like

  61. >Turns out that viruses aren’t as common as you might expect anymore on Windows side of the fence…

    Really, Robert? I just heard on a twit program today, from Leo Laporte, that maybe 150 million computers have been coopted by malware to spew spam etc. Robert Heron thought the figure was much higher. And they are ALL running the MS OS.

    Please remember, I am talking about plain joes at home, just trying to run simple software, read email, browse the web. And not have their pc destroyed with all its documents, as happened to a friend of mine last year. He now runs one computer online and one off. How crazy is that?

    I blame the poor advice we get. Apparently from you for one. Sorry. And from lots of other genuine experts, who are simply out of touch with “homeys.”

    Like

  62. >Turns out that viruses aren’t as common as you might expect anymore on Windows side of the fence…

    Really, Robert? I just heard on a twit program today, from Leo Laporte, that maybe 150 million computers have been coopted by malware to spew spam etc. Robert Heron thought the figure was much higher. And they are ALL running the MS OS.

    Please remember, I am talking about plain joes at home, just trying to run simple software, read email, browse the web. And not have their pc destroyed with all its documents, as happened to a friend of mine last year. He now runs one computer online and one off. How crazy is that?

    I blame the poor advice we get. Apparently from you for one. Sorry. And from lots of other genuine experts, who are simply out of touch with “homeys.”

    Like

  63. Steve: how many of those machines are running Windows XP Service Pack 2?

    Based on what I see in airports, a HUGE part of the world is still running Windows 98, Windows 2000, or unpatched XP systems.

    If you keep your security up to date and keep your OS up to date you see far far far far fewer problems than what you’re reporting.

    Should I remind you that a 1999 Mac crashed far far more often than today too? So, should I be able to stick Apple’s old reputation onto it?

    Like

  64. Steve: how many of those machines are running Windows XP Service Pack 2?

    Based on what I see in airports, a HUGE part of the world is still running Windows 98, Windows 2000, or unpatched XP systems.

    If you keep your security up to date and keep your OS up to date you see far far far far fewer problems than what you’re reporting.

    Should I remind you that a 1999 Mac crashed far far more often than today too? So, should I be able to stick Apple’s old reputation onto it?

    Like

  65. The dialog box? Everytime I try to install something on my new Mac it asks for my user name and password too.

    However, Mac OS X doesn’t blank out the rest of your screen. You’re free to work on anything else you want, and shove the dialog out of the way until you feel like dealing with it. Vista doesn’t. Instead, it shuts down everything but that box. Bad UI, no doughnut.

    But the problem it is trying to solve has nothing to do with the registry and everything to do with the fact that Windows used to let you run in administrator mode by default.

    Barraging you with a continual stream of dialogs for things that have no business needing approval is EXACTLY like how Microsoft deals with the registry. Instead of making the Registry easily fixed, and not the appendix of system settings it is, they just keep making more copies of it, so you have a better chance of being able to restore things.

    Administrator mode wasn’t the problem. The problem was that with Windows, Administrator mode is EXACTLY the same as the Unix “root” account, instead of something in between. Even worse, pre-sp2, Windows never even asked you for a password FOR this root account.

    When you hammer people with dialogs, the reaction becomes, “dear god, shut that shit off”.

    In Windows Vista you can’t run in administrator mode. That alone is a HUGE advance for Windows security.

    Until UAC gets gutted so non-admins can perform normal tasks without having to call the IT people at all hours from remote locations. Then it’s kind of screwed. Bothering people more != Better security.

    Should I remind you that a 1999 Mac crashed far far more often than today too? So, should I be able to stick Apple’s old reputation onto it?

    By the random pill colors you call logic, I had Pre-Mac OS X macs with two year uptimes, so therefore, you’re wrong.

    As well, SP 2 only protects *somewhat* better against random remote access. Doesn’t do shit about spyware and all its effects, and I am talking about COMPLETELY up to date SP2 installs.

    You’re not an IT person Robert, stop acting like you have a friggin’ clue.

    Like

  66. The dialog box? Everytime I try to install something on my new Mac it asks for my user name and password too.

    However, Mac OS X doesn’t blank out the rest of your screen. You’re free to work on anything else you want, and shove the dialog out of the way until you feel like dealing with it. Vista doesn’t. Instead, it shuts down everything but that box. Bad UI, no doughnut.

    But the problem it is trying to solve has nothing to do with the registry and everything to do with the fact that Windows used to let you run in administrator mode by default.

    Barraging you with a continual stream of dialogs for things that have no business needing approval is EXACTLY like how Microsoft deals with the registry. Instead of making the Registry easily fixed, and not the appendix of system settings it is, they just keep making more copies of it, so you have a better chance of being able to restore things.

    Administrator mode wasn’t the problem. The problem was that with Windows, Administrator mode is EXACTLY the same as the Unix “root” account, instead of something in between. Even worse, pre-sp2, Windows never even asked you for a password FOR this root account.

    When you hammer people with dialogs, the reaction becomes, “dear god, shut that shit off”.

    In Windows Vista you can’t run in administrator mode. That alone is a HUGE advance for Windows security.

    Until UAC gets gutted so non-admins can perform normal tasks without having to call the IT people at all hours from remote locations. Then it’s kind of screwed. Bothering people more != Better security.

    Should I remind you that a 1999 Mac crashed far far more often than today too? So, should I be able to stick Apple’s old reputation onto it?

    By the random pill colors you call logic, I had Pre-Mac OS X macs with two year uptimes, so therefore, you’re wrong.

    As well, SP 2 only protects *somewhat* better against random remote access. Doesn’t do shit about spyware and all its effects, and I am talking about COMPLETELY up to date SP2 installs.

    You’re not an IT person Robert, stop acting like you have a friggin’ clue.

    Like

  67. scoble,

    I wish your videos had transcripts. Scanning text is a lot less tedious than waiting through a video 🙂

    Like

  68. scoble,

    I wish your videos had transcripts. Scanning text is a lot less tedious than waiting through a video 🙂

    Like

  69. Robert, I don’t give much credit to an argument that compares restarts to loss of hardware and files. But I am going to rest my case: Macs, no viruses, malware, etc. Microsoft, a long history of wreck and ruin. Sure it might be better today. Maybe. But as a professional and pro, I’d feel bound to advise plain folks to pick the safer way.

    Like

  70. Robert, I don’t give much credit to an argument that compares restarts to loss of hardware and files. But I am going to rest my case: Macs, no viruses, malware, etc. Microsoft, a long history of wreck and ruin. Sure it might be better today. Maybe. But as a professional and pro, I’d feel bound to advise plain folks to pick the safer way.

    Like

  71. I am a system builder. I build custom PC’s for people and service them.
    I sat in the live cast meeting about Vista and upset that I as a
    reseller of Windows software are not getting incentives, but costly
    material at my expense to promote Vista.

    I realize that they want to narrow the gap. Where only major sellers of
    PC’s (Such as HP. Dell, and Gateway..) keep creating the “Throw away
    PC’s” and avoid patents and universal PC standards to reduce the
    options for customers to just replace parts to maintain their PC’s.
    They are planning to help them “Macify” the PC market. Removing
    generics such as Elitegroup, PCChips.. you know them. They sell
    frequently on sites like Tiger direct etc.

    Distributors like ASI, DHL, & many more rely on the PC enthusiasts,
    system builders, and small IT professionals to use their parts for
    system upgrades, and main board replacements.

    With the new Vista licensing, this effects large companies who purchase
    part replacements to maintain systems, expecting to keep them running
    for 5 years. IT now will have purchase completes with Licenses, in
    order to use new volume licenses, which they purchased in the first
    place to REDUCE unnecessary costs. This increases costs for the
    customer. Also, with the limited branding of Vista, computer
    enthusiasts, and game fanatics who just upgrade their computers on a
    frequent basis, may consider buying cheaper PC’s since they may in 1
    year replace their motherboard and processor twice a year to handle the
    latest PC titles.

    This increases the sales of more affordable PC’s, with copies of Windows
    Vista, but it is going to cause a backlash.

    I have already joined the Ohio Ubuntu Linux chapter as of 4 days ago,
    and plan on not re-registering my partnership with Microsoft because of
    this. I will be able to compete still with Dell and HP with affordable
    desktops with Ubuntu, which will soon support by April all major chip
    sets and printers. Since many of my customers who buy PC’s are not
    power users, the desktop environment and “ease of use” will draw
    customers. I would able to sell a PC with a fully operational office
    suite and educational packages for the cost of under $500. plus for
    only $50.00 add Cedega, which supports many Gaming platforms, or even
    wine, which now supports many static windows applications.

    I will still have customers coming in for support, as they might need
    assistance to use printers and cameras with their new systems, and
    since I know about looking at system logs in Linux, I will be able to
    diagnose minor (but soon to be ) hardware failures.

    This is going to be an interesting year. Smaller computer stores are
    going to have to compete with larger computer manufactures, and generic
    brands and Distributors are going to support this effort. Since now even
    states like Indiana has made a demand to put their schools on all Linux
    platforms, this is going to be also a new thing occurring here in Ohio.
    The chapter here has already made headway. You can review the meeting
    notes at http://ohio.ubuntu-us.org/node/2

    Like

  72. I am a system builder. I build custom PC’s for people and service them.
    I sat in the live cast meeting about Vista and upset that I as a
    reseller of Windows software are not getting incentives, but costly
    material at my expense to promote Vista.

    I realize that they want to narrow the gap. Where only major sellers of
    PC’s (Such as HP. Dell, and Gateway..) keep creating the “Throw away
    PC’s” and avoid patents and universal PC standards to reduce the
    options for customers to just replace parts to maintain their PC’s.
    They are planning to help them “Macify” the PC market. Removing
    generics such as Elitegroup, PCChips.. you know them. They sell
    frequently on sites like Tiger direct etc.

    Distributors like ASI, DHL, & many more rely on the PC enthusiasts,
    system builders, and small IT professionals to use their parts for
    system upgrades, and main board replacements.

    With the new Vista licensing, this effects large companies who purchase
    part replacements to maintain systems, expecting to keep them running
    for 5 years. IT now will have purchase completes with Licenses, in
    order to use new volume licenses, which they purchased in the first
    place to REDUCE unnecessary costs. This increases costs for the
    customer. Also, with the limited branding of Vista, computer
    enthusiasts, and game fanatics who just upgrade their computers on a
    frequent basis, may consider buying cheaper PC’s since they may in 1
    year replace their motherboard and processor twice a year to handle the
    latest PC titles.

    This increases the sales of more affordable PC’s, with copies of Windows
    Vista, but it is going to cause a backlash.

    I have already joined the Ohio Ubuntu Linux chapter as of 4 days ago,
    and plan on not re-registering my partnership with Microsoft because of
    this. I will be able to compete still with Dell and HP with affordable
    desktops with Ubuntu, which will soon support by April all major chip
    sets and printers. Since many of my customers who buy PC’s are not
    power users, the desktop environment and “ease of use” will draw
    customers. I would able to sell a PC with a fully operational office
    suite and educational packages for the cost of under $500. plus for
    only $50.00 add Cedega, which supports many Gaming platforms, or even
    wine, which now supports many static windows applications.

    I will still have customers coming in for support, as they might need
    assistance to use printers and cameras with their new systems, and
    since I know about looking at system logs in Linux, I will be able to
    diagnose minor (but soon to be ) hardware failures.

    This is going to be an interesting year. Smaller computer stores are
    going to have to compete with larger computer manufactures, and generic
    brands and Distributors are going to support this effort. Since now even
    states like Indiana has made a demand to put their schools on all Linux
    platforms, this is going to be also a new thing occurring here in Ohio.
    The chapter here has already made headway. You can review the meeting
    notes at http://ohio.ubuntu-us.org/node/2

    Like

  73. I think the discussion was not all that informative from what I watched. Since I’m over 50 and have been using computers since the punch card era, and bought an IBM PC in 1981 and a Mac in 1988 and use both daily, I’ve seen enough to know two things. First, it’s much more informative to get some Mac heads together to criticize the Mac OS and Window heads together to critique the Windows platform and maybe discuss their mutual preferences and disklikes in a constructive manner, than having any kind of OS A expert critique OS B and vice versa. Second, the OS war, as it’s been termed, is gradually declining in significance as the playing field grows away from PCs in general and enlarges to encompass many other kinds of appliances. It’s more instructive to discuss Apple and Microsoft as players in the future through their impact in various appliances than whether their current computer operating systems hold any significant advantage, since they (the operating systems themselves) are basically fighting for a smaller and smaller piece of the technology fabric.

    If anything, Microsoft should also consider a name change, as Apple did. Their name isn’t ‘cool’ anymore, and the future of technology almost renders their name construct obsolete. A fruit makes more sense, ironically.

    Like

  74. I think the discussion was not all that informative from what I watched. Since I’m over 50 and have been using computers since the punch card era, and bought an IBM PC in 1981 and a Mac in 1988 and use both daily, I’ve seen enough to know two things. First, it’s much more informative to get some Mac heads together to criticize the Mac OS and Window heads together to critique the Windows platform and maybe discuss their mutual preferences and disklikes in a constructive manner, than having any kind of OS A expert critique OS B and vice versa. Second, the OS war, as it’s been termed, is gradually declining in significance as the playing field grows away from PCs in general and enlarges to encompass many other kinds of appliances. It’s more instructive to discuss Apple and Microsoft as players in the future through their impact in various appliances than whether their current computer operating systems hold any significant advantage, since they (the operating systems themselves) are basically fighting for a smaller and smaller piece of the technology fabric.

    If anything, Microsoft should also consider a name change, as Apple did. Their name isn’t ‘cool’ anymore, and the future of technology almost renders their name construct obsolete. A fruit makes more sense, ironically.

    Like

  75. @18 You use one random example of people lined up at some randoms store in Phoenix as an example of Windows popularity???? I’m guessing polling and surveying and statistics in not in your background? Have any other compelling data point of Windows “popularity”

    Like

  76. @18 You use one random example of people lined up at some randoms store in Phoenix as an example of Windows popularity???? I’m guessing polling and surveying and statistics in not in your background? Have any other compelling data point of Windows “popularity”

    Like

  77. boring boring boring. I’ve worked on windows for years.
    And I mean worked on windows. Getting it to work. patching and second editioning, and fixing, and dicking around.

    Bought an Imac about a month ago, and you know what. I work on something other than the operating system these days. Like actual work. And popular? I’ve never once in my life heard anyone rave positive about windows. Never. Bitch certainly. But I’ve enjoyed my work since I got that mac. Entirely subjective I know, but there ya go. Thanks y’all.

    Like

  78. boring boring boring. I’ve worked on windows for years.
    And I mean worked on windows. Getting it to work. patching and second editioning, and fixing, and dicking around.

    Bought an Imac about a month ago, and you know what. I work on something other than the operating system these days. Like actual work. And popular? I’ve never once in my life heard anyone rave positive about windows. Never. Bitch certainly. But I’ve enjoyed my work since I got that mac. Entirely subjective I know, but there ya go. Thanks y’all.

    Like

  79. “However, Mac OS X doesn’t blank out the rest of your screen. You’re free to work on anything else you want, and shove the dialog out of the way until you feel like dealing with it. Vista doesn’t. ”

    UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.

    Like

  80. “However, Mac OS X doesn’t blank out the rest of your screen. You’re free to work on anything else you want, and shove the dialog out of the way until you feel like dealing with it. Vista doesn’t. ”

    UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.

    Like

  81. One thing I didn’t hear the discussion comment on is Apple’s cheesy advertising for PC vs Mac.

    I find that ad series quite insulting, implying that people who use PCs are ignorant polyester-suited nerds, and Mac users are cool, hip and more intelligent.

    That itself aggravates me more than a computer crash, and I suspect many other people feel it too. Especially since I spent 18 months with a crashing Ibook that Apple refused to accept was faulty.

    Like

  82. One thing I didn’t hear the discussion comment on is Apple’s cheesy advertising for PC vs Mac.

    I find that ad series quite insulting, implying that people who use PCs are ignorant polyester-suited nerds, and Mac users are cool, hip and more intelligent.

    That itself aggravates me more than a computer crash, and I suspect many other people feel it too. Especially since I spent 18 months with a crashing Ibook that Apple refused to accept was faulty.

    Like

  83. Robert, maybe you should have had more competent people running your Macs. We had Quark 4, Office, etc, never had any more crashing problems than any of the 98/NT 4 boxes. Now the reliability kings at the time were our Solaris workstations, but that was a different architecture and usage pattern entirely.

    The point you’re missing is that *any* OS is stable if properly cared for. Considering how you got your “Scobleizer” nickname, I’m not seeing you as being into the whole “Properly cared for” thing.

    You use one random example of people lined up at some randoms store in Phoenix as an example of Windows popularity???? I’m guessing polling and surveying and statistics in not in your background?

    Layz, it’s Robert. We all know that fact-checking and the like are not going to happen here. It’s what he does, or rather doesn’t do. I resisted the temptation to point out the lines at the Macworld keynote and use the comparative sizes in anything, because while fun, it would be kind of dumb.

    UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Funny how every other OS can manage to deal with this issue in a way that doesn’t hose the user. It’s only Microsoft that has to make security as maddeningly infuriating as humanly possible. Of course, that way, they can say “SEE! WE’RE PROTECTING YOU! BY LOCKING YOU OUT OF YOUR COMPUTER! WE PROTECT YOU”

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.

    Dude, spoofing a dialog that blanks out your screen ain’t impossible on Winders either, so you have no point there. You have, of course, verifiable proof that one can snoop the authentication dialogs on the current version of Mac OS X, and that it is of course, impossible to do the same on Vista?

    If so, links?

    John C. Welch, do you ever shut up?

    But Luke, if I did, you’d have a normal happy life. Where’s the fun in that for me?

    Like

  84. Robert, maybe you should have had more competent people running your Macs. We had Quark 4, Office, etc, never had any more crashing problems than any of the 98/NT 4 boxes. Now the reliability kings at the time were our Solaris workstations, but that was a different architecture and usage pattern entirely.

    The point you’re missing is that *any* OS is stable if properly cared for. Considering how you got your “Scobleizer” nickname, I’m not seeing you as being into the whole “Properly cared for” thing.

    You use one random example of people lined up at some randoms store in Phoenix as an example of Windows popularity???? I’m guessing polling and surveying and statistics in not in your background?

    Layz, it’s Robert. We all know that fact-checking and the like are not going to happen here. It’s what he does, or rather doesn’t do. I resisted the temptation to point out the lines at the Macworld keynote and use the comparative sizes in anything, because while fun, it would be kind of dumb.

    UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Funny how every other OS can manage to deal with this issue in a way that doesn’t hose the user. It’s only Microsoft that has to make security as maddeningly infuriating as humanly possible. Of course, that way, they can say “SEE! WE’RE PROTECTING YOU! BY LOCKING YOU OUT OF YOUR COMPUTER! WE PROTECT YOU”

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.

    Dude, spoofing a dialog that blanks out your screen ain’t impossible on Winders either, so you have no point there. You have, of course, verifiable proof that one can snoop the authentication dialogs on the current version of Mac OS X, and that it is of course, impossible to do the same on Vista?

    If so, links?

    John C. Welch, do you ever shut up?

    But Luke, if I did, you’d have a normal happy life. Where’s the fun in that for me?

    Like

  85. Vista is for people that know nothing about technology or quality. Quite often it’s the same type of people that settle in life. Not much of success either.

    Like

  86. Vista is for people that know nothing about technology or quality. Quite often it’s the same type of people that settle in life. Not much of success either.

    Like

  87. Or is it just that Apple doesn’t have any response in place to .NET? (I’m still not sure what the official designation is.)

    Yes, I believe several senior engineers in Cupertino yawned. I’m not sure if it was the official response, but it seemed appropriate. – Tim

    P.S. Yes, I’m aware of the prevalence of .NET support in the Windows programming world. I deal with it (as a developer) every day. The best I can say is that it’s marginally better than “DLL Hell.” But hey… it’s from MS, so it’s either “popular” or “common” (depending on which definition that you use).

    Like

  88. Or is it just that Apple doesn’t have any response in place to .NET? (I’m still not sure what the official designation is.)

    Yes, I believe several senior engineers in Cupertino yawned. I’m not sure if it was the official response, but it seemed appropriate. – Tim

    P.S. Yes, I’m aware of the prevalence of .NET support in the Windows programming world. I deal with it (as a developer) every day. The best I can say is that it’s marginally better than “DLL Hell.” But hey… it’s from MS, so it’s either “popular” or “common” (depending on which definition that you use).

    Like

  89. @68

    Andrew, I asked my wife (a non-technical, Windows-only user) what she thought of the ads last night. Her response:

    “It seems to emphasize ease of use for the Mac, that while the PC is fine for business stuff, the Mac is more accessible for the average Joe.”

    I strongly suspect that Apple has done a bit of market research, and discovered that the techie types who are annoyed/offended by the ads would never have considered a Mac to begin with (coincidentally, probably more likely to know John Hodgeman). The non-techie seems to not get annoyed at the ads at all, and finds them funny and entertaining.

    Based on the percentage of technie to non-techie (as some have suggested, possibly parallel to the percentage of manual transmissions shipped in new cars today), maybe the Apple marketing people not such morons after all. – Tim

    Like

  90. @68

    Andrew, I asked my wife (a non-technical, Windows-only user) what she thought of the ads last night. Her response:

    “It seems to emphasize ease of use for the Mac, that while the PC is fine for business stuff, the Mac is more accessible for the average Joe.”

    I strongly suspect that Apple has done a bit of market research, and discovered that the techie types who are annoyed/offended by the ads would never have considered a Mac to begin with (coincidentally, probably more likely to know John Hodgeman). The non-techie seems to not get annoyed at the ads at all, and finds them funny and entertaining.

    Based on the percentage of technie to non-techie (as some have suggested, possibly parallel to the percentage of manual transmissions shipped in new cars today), maybe the Apple marketing people not such morons after all. – Tim

    Like

  91. @53. “Based on what I see in airports, a HUGE part of the world is still running Windows 98, Windows 2000, or unpatched XP systems.”

    Good grief, Scoble. Your proof points get more and more ridiculous. So, lemme see if I understand your thesis here. You see random people at random airports running older versions of Windows (BTW, how can you tell, just by looking, that someone is running an unpatched version of XP?) and from that you conclude that the majority of incidents of malware are coming from these types of people? What might help to bolster your theory is quoting actual usage numbers of those OS’s, rather than your random observations. Or do you not subscribe to a blog that reports that type of data? I’m guessing that’s your problem here.

    Seriously, is your sole source of information and research based on random people you see and reading the first three lines of blog posts that are basically random opinions from other people?

    Like

  92. @53. “Based on what I see in airports, a HUGE part of the world is still running Windows 98, Windows 2000, or unpatched XP systems.”

    Good grief, Scoble. Your proof points get more and more ridiculous. So, lemme see if I understand your thesis here. You see random people at random airports running older versions of Windows (BTW, how can you tell, just by looking, that someone is running an unpatched version of XP?) and from that you conclude that the majority of incidents of malware are coming from these types of people? What might help to bolster your theory is quoting actual usage numbers of those OS’s, rather than your random observations. Or do you not subscribe to a blog that reports that type of data? I’m guessing that’s your problem here.

    Seriously, is your sole source of information and research based on random people you see and reading the first three lines of blog posts that are basically random opinions from other people?

    Like

  93. These videos are terrible and here’s why: this ISN’T an intelligent debate about Windows vs. OSX or Microsoft vs. Apple. About 20 minutes of these two hours are geniunely on topic and geniunely on target. At least half of the time is a tangent. The other half is so poorly articulated or generalized or just plain wrong. I mean, did they really just discuss the two-button mouse issue in 2007? Apple’s context menu support is completely rich across the OS and applications and all desktops ship with two mice. Macbooks provide context clicking through keeping two fingers on the trackpad which not only enables a larger target, but allow for those whoe are confused but the second button to opt out.

    Anyway, no offense to the mac usergroup guy but he was so totally incapable of articulating the Apple argument it was pathetic. He just looked like the classic mac dweeb whining about how it “feels” while everyone talked about Vista’s graphics layer like it’s wild new tech. COME ON. Quartz hit the scene with OSX 10.0 in 2001. Quartz Extreme and Core Image delivered full GPU acceleration years ago and they do so without hobbling the UI on non-compliant graphics cards. OSX has expose, dropshadows and translucency on a 400mhz G4 cube.

    I offer scoble a rematch. I bet I could do way better on the partisan mac side than this jumbled mess.

    Like

  94. These videos are terrible and here’s why: this ISN’T an intelligent debate about Windows vs. OSX or Microsoft vs. Apple. About 20 minutes of these two hours are geniunely on topic and geniunely on target. At least half of the time is a tangent. The other half is so poorly articulated or generalized or just plain wrong. I mean, did they really just discuss the two-button mouse issue in 2007? Apple’s context menu support is completely rich across the OS and applications and all desktops ship with two mice. Macbooks provide context clicking through keeping two fingers on the trackpad which not only enables a larger target, but allow for those whoe are confused but the second button to opt out.

    Anyway, no offense to the mac usergroup guy but he was so totally incapable of articulating the Apple argument it was pathetic. He just looked like the classic mac dweeb whining about how it “feels” while everyone talked about Vista’s graphics layer like it’s wild new tech. COME ON. Quartz hit the scene with OSX 10.0 in 2001. Quartz Extreme and Core Image delivered full GPU acceleration years ago and they do so without hobbling the UI on non-compliant graphics cards. OSX has expose, dropshadows and translucency on a 400mhz G4 cube.

    I offer scoble a rematch. I bet I could do way better on the partisan mac side than this jumbled mess.

    Like

  95. “UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.” – luke.

    Luke, Vista’s UAC does this at the expense of the user’s productivity and concentration. Besides which, WHAT Mac Malware? You can’t justify something when the negative doesn’t exist, mate.

    “I find that ad series quite insulting, implying that people who use PCs are ignorant polyester-suited nerds, and Mac users are cool, hip and more intelligent.” – Andrew.

    Andrew, didn’t you see the Office 2003 ads by Microsoft? They implied that you were stupid old dinosaurs unless you upgraded…Tim (#75), spot on- the ads are light entertainment highlighting real facts. I always have a good laugh at these ads and look forward to more! They’re much better than lame pictures of dinosaur office workers being ‘prehistoric’ for using Office XP (a perfectly-fine version of Office, I might add)- talk about shooting yourself in the foot with your own ads criticising your own software!

    “SEE! WE’RE PROTECTING YOU! BY LOCKING YOU OUT OF YOUR COMPUTER! WE PROTECT YOU” -John.

    Made me spill my Coke with laughter! Thanks for your comments John- saved me typing them, and kept this inane and subjetively useless debate in order.

    Robert, whilst your passion is laudable, your scientific nature is benign- your ‘facts’ leave us scratching our heads, forced to take you at word….sorry, but it doesn’t work like that in the real world- you might fool your Mother with those sweeping comments, but nobody else 🙂

    Like

  96. “UAC dlg runs in a separate desktop that no other app has access to.
    That’s so that malware (spyware, keyloggers, etc) can’t snoop your password. And also makes it harder for malware to spoof the UAC dlg.

    Mac malware ( if it existed) can spoof authentication dlgs and snoop anthentcation credentials that are entered by teh user.” – luke.

    Luke, Vista’s UAC does this at the expense of the user’s productivity and concentration. Besides which, WHAT Mac Malware? You can’t justify something when the negative doesn’t exist, mate.

    “I find that ad series quite insulting, implying that people who use PCs are ignorant polyester-suited nerds, and Mac users are cool, hip and more intelligent.” – Andrew.

    Andrew, didn’t you see the Office 2003 ads by Microsoft? They implied that you were stupid old dinosaurs unless you upgraded…Tim (#75), spot on- the ads are light entertainment highlighting real facts. I always have a good laugh at these ads and look forward to more! They’re much better than lame pictures of dinosaur office workers being ‘prehistoric’ for using Office XP (a perfectly-fine version of Office, I might add)- talk about shooting yourself in the foot with your own ads criticising your own software!

    “SEE! WE’RE PROTECTING YOU! BY LOCKING YOU OUT OF YOUR COMPUTER! WE PROTECT YOU” -John.

    Made me spill my Coke with laughter! Thanks for your comments John- saved me typing them, and kept this inane and subjetively useless debate in order.

    Robert, whilst your passion is laudable, your scientific nature is benign- your ‘facts’ leave us scratching our heads, forced to take you at word….sorry, but it doesn’t work like that in the real world- you might fool your Mother with those sweeping comments, but nobody else 🙂

    Like

  97. You want .Net on a Mac, there’s Mono. Open source, well planned, well – executed.

    Of course, the dirty secret about .Net is a lot of .Net applications aren’t “pure” .Net.

    Like

  98. You want .Net on a Mac, there’s Mono. Open source, well planned, well – executed.

    Of course, the dirty secret about .Net is a lot of .Net applications aren’t “pure” .Net.

    Like

  99. It’s not really a dirty secret as much as its the developer’s conscious/unconscious decision to make dependencies beyond .NET.

    There’s actually a whole MSDN article on the topic of “pure” .NET.

    Like

  100. It’s not really a dirty secret as much as its the developer’s conscious/unconscious decision to make dependencies beyond .NET.

    There’s actually a whole MSDN article on the topic of “pure” .NET.

    Like

  101. I was excited when Vista was launched. My university had a PC in their IT office with Vista Business. I checked it out right before break and loved it. It is a welcome break from that all to familiar grey start button and outdated menu layout! I was psyched!

    I used Linux for a while, and even used Mac OS X. I had a PC laptop that I bought a few months ago (I know, I had to have both OS’s). I bought Vista Home Premuim Academic today, and just now had enough time for the upgrade. I think I’ll stay up all night and play with it. It’s good to be back…

    Like

  102. I was excited when Vista was launched. My university had a PC in their IT office with Vista Business. I checked it out right before break and loved it. It is a welcome break from that all to familiar grey start button and outdated menu layout! I was psyched!

    I used Linux for a while, and even used Mac OS X. I had a PC laptop that I bought a few months ago (I know, I had to have both OS’s). I bought Vista Home Premuim Academic today, and just now had enough time for the upgrade. I think I’ll stay up all night and play with it. It’s good to be back…

    Like

  103. These guys are uninformed about mac in general.
    The right-click debate was asinine. EVERY thing in mac has a right-click enabled. BUT you don’t NEED to because it’s designed to not cripple you.
    Less is more.

    Like

  104. These guys are uninformed about mac in general.
    The right-click debate was asinine. EVERY thing in mac has a right-click enabled. BUT you don’t NEED to because it’s designed to not cripple you.
    Less is more.

    Like

  105. Great discussion. Also reveals the different types of users using the two systems. Mac to me makes so much more sense in comparison to Windows. I login every day at the office with ctrl + alt + delete which offsets windows take on how to use computers…..

    excuse my englisch,

    stefan, switzerland

    Like

  106. Great discussion. Also reveals the different types of users using the two systems. Mac to me makes so much more sense in comparison to Windows. I login every day at the office with ctrl + alt + delete which offsets windows take on how to use computers…..

    excuse my englisch,

    stefan, switzerland

    Like

  107. There’s only ONE reason any person could argue in favor of windows over mac and that is they’ve never spent a week with a mac.
    Longer life span.
    no virusses.
    no Delays.
    no ‘drivers’
    no ‘uninstallers’
    no ‘system registry’.
    better graphics, better media, Always ahead of Windows.
    FASTER than ANY windows pc.
    No ”New Hardware Wizard”.
    Fast, easy, elegant, ergonomic, friendly, quick, CLEAN, uncluttered, longer-lasting, no trips to the ‘computer repair shop’.

    Like

  108. There’s only ONE reason any person could argue in favor of windows over mac and that is they’ve never spent a week with a mac.
    Longer life span.
    no virusses.
    no Delays.
    no ‘drivers’
    no ‘uninstallers’
    no ‘system registry’.
    better graphics, better media, Always ahead of Windows.
    FASTER than ANY windows pc.
    No ”New Hardware Wizard”.
    Fast, easy, elegant, ergonomic, friendly, quick, CLEAN, uncluttered, longer-lasting, no trips to the ‘computer repair shop’.

    Like

  109. I am a Mac user since 1985. Back then I bought a Mac because it offered a graphic environment and ease of use with peripherals (then mostly a printer). I have always stated I might switch to another OS if it offered me advantages. Which is what I am expecting from a comparison and not really getting.
    Everything I own now is geared towards the Mac. So Vista ought to be really better to make a switch worthwhile.
    Apart from that, the monopolistic power of Microsoft is not something I relish.

    Like

  110. I am a Mac user since 1985. Back then I bought a Mac because it offered a graphic environment and ease of use with peripherals (then mostly a printer). I have always stated I might switch to another OS if it offered me advantages. Which is what I am expecting from a comparison and not really getting.
    Everything I own now is geared towards the Mac. So Vista ought to be really better to make a switch worthwhile.
    Apart from that, the monopolistic power of Microsoft is not something I relish.

    Like

  111. windows is the best
    the most practical, and with vista’s launch the best looking os.

    mac sucks. just looks good but otherwise sucks

    Like

  112. windows is the best
    the most practical, and with vista’s launch the best looking os.

    mac sucks. just looks good but otherwise sucks

    Like

  113. The paradigm of Mac, at least from the layperson, appears to be Graphic Artist focused. I think there would be less resistance from hardcore PC geeks, especially programmers, if Mac were to put some dollars into marketing and developing a stronger developer community. Sure it exists, but even Mac pokes fun of the developers in their commercials [insert commercial about c++ programmers bible here]. I don’t think companies even put Macs on the list in consideration for application development platforms. Java = windows/linux… well that is pretty much the two choices for all languages. Variety is good, so more power to Mac to try. I suppose they didn’t revitalize themselves touting Java support and development platforms so they just focus on what works, but I truly do feel that there is a larger demographic that they are missing out on who are especially prone to be evangelists towards one OS… programmers and especially those younger basement dwelling coding trolls and college kids that are the future of software development.

    Like

  114. The paradigm of Mac, at least from the layperson, appears to be Graphic Artist focused. I think there would be less resistance from hardcore PC geeks, especially programmers, if Mac were to put some dollars into marketing and developing a stronger developer community. Sure it exists, but even Mac pokes fun of the developers in their commercials [insert commercial about c++ programmers bible here]. I don’t think companies even put Macs on the list in consideration for application development platforms. Java = windows/linux… well that is pretty much the two choices for all languages. Variety is good, so more power to Mac to try. I suppose they didn’t revitalize themselves touting Java support and development platforms so they just focus on what works, but I truly do feel that there is a larger demographic that they are missing out on who are especially prone to be evangelists towards one OS… programmers and especially those younger basement dwelling coding trolls and college kids that are the future of software development.

    Like

  115. Good show but it has to be said that you guys aren’t nearly as informed as you think you are. It’s obvious that you know next to nothing about the inner workings of either OS, even though you claim to be techies.

    Case in point: Unix has better file systems than the Mac… I’m sorry but some of this stuff is just silly. OS X is Unix. And, Leopard will ship with support for the most advanced file system on the planet: ZFS.

    Windows is also a terrible idea for servers, this is why Unix runs the internet, not Windows server. I am a Mac user, but I work with Windows all day as a developer.

    It’s amazingly easy to sit on a couch and talk your ass off about what you think will come. CAN YOU TRY AND STICK TO FACTS.

    Thanks, Take care,

    Mark.

    Like

  116. Good show but it has to be said that you guys aren’t nearly as informed as you think you are. It’s obvious that you know next to nothing about the inner workings of either OS, even though you claim to be techies.

    Case in point: Unix has better file systems than the Mac… I’m sorry but some of this stuff is just silly. OS X is Unix. And, Leopard will ship with support for the most advanced file system on the planet: ZFS.

    Windows is also a terrible idea for servers, this is why Unix runs the internet, not Windows server. I am a Mac user, but I work with Windows all day as a developer.

    It’s amazingly easy to sit on a couch and talk your ass off about what you think will come. CAN YOU TRY AND STICK TO FACTS.

    Thanks, Take care,

    Mark.

    Like

  117. Please, please don’t pretend to know anything about .NET or development in general. Version 3.0 of .NET is not a major upgrade, there are some minor changes to C#, new and updated APIs and some minor Tech added. In fact the version number was chosen simply to make it fit better with Vista!

    WIth this mouse shit you’ve gone way to far.

    Let me assert for the record that every Mac designed in the past 5 years will have a mouse that has right click! Added to that every notebook for the last 4 years accept a two finger click on the track-pad as a right click. Even if you don’t have a new Mac you can hold down control and click.

    RIGHT CLICK is built into the OS. It’s been built in since the NeXT OS, the OS that became OS X. Also note that you can use right click for a lot of things, but it’s an option.

    The guy in the middle there doesn’t any of this. It was at this point that the discussion became a joke. It was reasonably creditable before any of the mouse talk.

    I’m not trying to knock you, great show, but you have your facts wrong in so many areas.

    Best wishes,

    Mark.

    Like

  118. Please, please don’t pretend to know anything about .NET or development in general. Version 3.0 of .NET is not a major upgrade, there are some minor changes to C#, new and updated APIs and some minor Tech added. In fact the version number was chosen simply to make it fit better with Vista!

    WIth this mouse shit you’ve gone way to far.

    Let me assert for the record that every Mac designed in the past 5 years will have a mouse that has right click! Added to that every notebook for the last 4 years accept a two finger click on the track-pad as a right click. Even if you don’t have a new Mac you can hold down control and click.

    RIGHT CLICK is built into the OS. It’s been built in since the NeXT OS, the OS that became OS X. Also note that you can use right click for a lot of things, but it’s an option.

    The guy in the middle there doesn’t any of this. It was at this point that the discussion became a joke. It was reasonably creditable before any of the mouse talk.

    I’m not trying to knock you, great show, but you have your facts wrong in so many areas.

    Best wishes,

    Mark.

    Like

  119. Hmm, I had a few wee plays with OSX, and yeah, it does seem nice and simple.
    I wasn’t that impressed though, nothing really grabbed me as amazing or intuitive, but I suppose you would have to use the OS everyday to actually form a proper opinion on how good it is.

    As for the stability of Vista, I have been running vista daily since February now.
    The system itself has not crashed once.Ever!
    Sure, a few applications I have installed have had a few issues, but rather than hang the system like they would have in XP, vista gives you the option of persevering or killing the app.

    The problem with running Vista is that anyone can try to install it on any old piece of crap.
    With apple, everything is sorted upon purchase, which is good for some.

    Not for me though, I like to build my own computers.

    I built two conroe powered computers for a friend who uses them for rendering, using lightwave.
    And yes, there were a few teething issues to begin with, but they were sorted pretty quick.
    Now, his business partner has a mac pro, and just one of these conroe powered PC’s out rendered the mac, 2 minutes a frame to the macs 4 minutes.
    The mac cost a little bit more than both PC’s, and yes, they came with a widescreen monitor and peripherals.
    So my friend quadrupled his production time by going with windows.

    By the way, as far as I am aware, there are no conroe powered macs out there, I might be wrong, but a google search seems to bring up some rather ambiguous results.
    I might be wrong, correct me if this is the case.

    Someone mentioned the Macs have better graphics than PC’s.

    How so?

    What is the best Graphics Card you can get for a Mac?
    As far as I can tell, its the higher price than normal Quadro FX 4500.

    Do they support Quadro FX 5500 1GB?
    No.
    Do the support the 8 series nVidia cards?
    No.
    Do they support DX10?
    No.

    So please, tell me why they would have better graphics?

    Food for thought.

    Anyway, I suppose we will have to wait until they are happy with the iPhone, and then maybe we can see how good Leopard is eh?

    Like

  120. Hmm, I had a few wee plays with OSX, and yeah, it does seem nice and simple.
    I wasn’t that impressed though, nothing really grabbed me as amazing or intuitive, but I suppose you would have to use the OS everyday to actually form a proper opinion on how good it is.

    As for the stability of Vista, I have been running vista daily since February now.
    The system itself has not crashed once.Ever!
    Sure, a few applications I have installed have had a few issues, but rather than hang the system like they would have in XP, vista gives you the option of persevering or killing the app.

    The problem with running Vista is that anyone can try to install it on any old piece of crap.
    With apple, everything is sorted upon purchase, which is good for some.

    Not for me though, I like to build my own computers.

    I built two conroe powered computers for a friend who uses them for rendering, using lightwave.
    And yes, there were a few teething issues to begin with, but they were sorted pretty quick.
    Now, his business partner has a mac pro, and just one of these conroe powered PC’s out rendered the mac, 2 minutes a frame to the macs 4 minutes.
    The mac cost a little bit more than both PC’s, and yes, they came with a widescreen monitor and peripherals.
    So my friend quadrupled his production time by going with windows.

    By the way, as far as I am aware, there are no conroe powered macs out there, I might be wrong, but a google search seems to bring up some rather ambiguous results.
    I might be wrong, correct me if this is the case.

    Someone mentioned the Macs have better graphics than PC’s.

    How so?

    What is the best Graphics Card you can get for a Mac?
    As far as I can tell, its the higher price than normal Quadro FX 4500.

    Do they support Quadro FX 5500 1GB?
    No.
    Do the support the 8 series nVidia cards?
    No.
    Do they support DX10?
    No.

    So please, tell me why they would have better graphics?

    Food for thought.

    Anyway, I suppose we will have to wait until they are happy with the iPhone, and then maybe we can see how good Leopard is eh?

    Like

  121. Use whatever OS works best for you and the software you wish to run on it. If OSX floats your boat, good for you, enjoy yourself; if it’s Linux, then well done, I hope you’re having fun, for me it’s Windows.

    It’s interesting to think the OS debate is rarely ever “THIS is better than THAT”, but more “MINE is better than YOURS”, as if we need to justify ourselves to make ourselves feel better about the choices we have made.

    I create 3D and 2D graphics, webpages and Flash animations using Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Flash, Cinema 4D, all from within XP (and now Vista) without a problem, without any effort, and without having to fight against some sort of mythical OS monster to do it. I’ve never had a computer virus in the 8 years connected to the net (4 years via broadband), and the last blue screen of death I had was at least 2 years ago. I also enjoy the latest games (STALKER is the current favourite).

    It’s a pity that owners of other operating systems will sometimes feel the need to try and make me feel inferior too them, for no apparent reason apart from to make themselves feel good.

    Like

  122. Use whatever OS works best for you and the software you wish to run on it. If OSX floats your boat, good for you, enjoy yourself; if it’s Linux, then well done, I hope you’re having fun, for me it’s Windows.

    It’s interesting to think the OS debate is rarely ever “THIS is better than THAT”, but more “MINE is better than YOURS”, as if we need to justify ourselves to make ourselves feel better about the choices we have made.

    I create 3D and 2D graphics, webpages and Flash animations using Photoshop, Illustrator, Dreamweaver, Flash, Cinema 4D, all from within XP (and now Vista) without a problem, without any effort, and without having to fight against some sort of mythical OS monster to do it. I’ve never had a computer virus in the 8 years connected to the net (4 years via broadband), and the last blue screen of death I had was at least 2 years ago. I also enjoy the latest games (STALKER is the current favourite).

    It’s a pity that owners of other operating systems will sometimes feel the need to try and make me feel inferior too them, for no apparent reason apart from to make themselves feel good.

    Like

  123. OS X: ‘Hey, Vista, what’s up?’
    Vista: ‘I’m playing a game.’
    OS X: ‘Cool, which one?’
    Vista: ‘Any.’
    OS X: ‘Oh…’ (Turns away… Fades away…)

    Like

  124. OS X: ‘Hey, Vista, what’s up?’
    Vista: ‘I’m playing a game.’
    OS X: ‘Cool, which one?’
    Vista: ‘Any.’
    OS X: ‘Oh…’ (Turns away… Fades away…)

    Like

  125. With Leopard around the corner and the problems Vista faces, I guess Leopard will win the OS battle.

    Cheers

    Like

  126. With Leopard around the corner and the problems Vista faces, I guess Leopard will win the OS battle.

    Cheers

    Like

  127. I just want to point out the following:

    Risk = Threat * Severity * Exposure

    The reason why windows is more prone to attacks is simply because they are more exposed to being attacked. As a user, I regularly install free software from internet, do this and that, tweak something, or play with some trial.

    With a Mac, everything is so hard to find, say I wanna get a third party codec for free. I can go on an on with examples of stuff that I need, that I can find for windows for free and not for Mac.

    Securitywise, I think windows have improved a lot. I haven’t had a virus in a loooong time. I do get those spywares, but then I have spybot and adaware for free that takes care of it. Stabilitywise it’s actually much better than linux or solaris, which I have used and got dissappointed.

    User interfacewise, I would say I am not anal or desperate about either MAC OS X or Win Vista. As a user I think both are excellent interface. But that is not an important factor for me when deciding which one to buy.

    I want to be free when choosing the devices I want for my PC, for example I want NVIDIA chipset or may be ATI. And MOST IMPORTANTLY I want to be free enough so that if I decide to upgrade my computer, I can easily do it. Quite honestly, I dont perceive an Apple MAC computer to satisfy that.

    Most important of all, I would be more interested in MAC if I wouldn’t see these sort of “religious fanaticism” among apple users. Here’s a story, I have a professor who hates PC and MS. So one day we’re working on something and apparently he has this shitty P2 laptop half broken. He starts it and apparently it was taking a while to startup and he shakes his head and says oooohhhh microsoft!… I mean come on,… MAC people… if you wanna attract people towards MAC, I dont think bad mouthing Microsoft in Adv would really help. In fact that’s the sign of an inferiority complex and a definite turn-off for people.

    Like

  128. I just want to point out the following:

    Risk = Threat * Severity * Exposure

    The reason why windows is more prone to attacks is simply because they are more exposed to being attacked. As a user, I regularly install free software from internet, do this and that, tweak something, or play with some trial.

    With a Mac, everything is so hard to find, say I wanna get a third party codec for free. I can go on an on with examples of stuff that I need, that I can find for windows for free and not for Mac.

    Securitywise, I think windows have improved a lot. I haven’t had a virus in a loooong time. I do get those spywares, but then I have spybot and adaware for free that takes care of it. Stabilitywise it’s actually much better than linux or solaris, which I have used and got dissappointed.

    User interfacewise, I would say I am not anal or desperate about either MAC OS X or Win Vista. As a user I think both are excellent interface. But that is not an important factor for me when deciding which one to buy.

    I want to be free when choosing the devices I want for my PC, for example I want NVIDIA chipset or may be ATI. And MOST IMPORTANTLY I want to be free enough so that if I decide to upgrade my computer, I can easily do it. Quite honestly, I dont perceive an Apple MAC computer to satisfy that.

    Most important of all, I would be more interested in MAC if I wouldn’t see these sort of “religious fanaticism” among apple users. Here’s a story, I have a professor who hates PC and MS. So one day we’re working on something and apparently he has this shitty P2 laptop half broken. He starts it and apparently it was taking a while to startup and he shakes his head and says oooohhhh microsoft!… I mean come on,… MAC people… if you wanna attract people towards MAC, I dont think bad mouthing Microsoft in Adv would really help. In fact that’s the sign of an inferiority complex and a definite turn-off for people.

    Like

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