Robert Cringley says that Microsoft doesn't invite security experts to campus to learn from them.
This is patently NOT true.
We regularly hold "BlueHat" conferences on campus. Why are these called "BlueHat?" Because of the blue color on employee badges. I attended part of the last one (it was held about a month ago). This is for Microsoft employees. On stage? Security experts from around the world.
In fact, the BlueHat team has a blog where they list the security experts and topics that were invited onto campus to speak.
And, even separate of that, we have security experts on campus helping us out all the time. The IE team even hired a 16-year-old who found a few exploits and he worked the summer helping make Windows Vista more secure. (He told me that IE7 is far more secure than other browsers he's tried to hack into).
Other reactions to Cringley's article? Well, for one, internally at Microsoft we know it takes about two months to "fill the channel" with a new OS — we were aiming to have Vista ready for August and when it became apparent we wouldn't make that date the planners knew they couldn't make Christmas. That wasn't a decision made lightly, but I've been talking to people internally and it was apparent that the quality of Vista just wasn't ready for an August release. I'm glad that our executives stand up for quality, even while they are leaving billions of dollars on the table. The pressure to ship is extreme. Believe me, everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it (not to mention our stock price and bonuses and other things). That pressure needs to be countered. In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.
Two, we need to treat all of our OEMs fairly and can't favor one over the other. Dell is the wrong one to pick on here. They became very profitable BECAUSE they made their supply chain hyper efficient. They can turn around machines in days, while other companies need much longer turnaround times to get their machines from manufacturing into customers' hands.
Frank Boosman has a different argument with Cringley. He's right. Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. Just one visit to our testing labs shows you why.
Scobleizer 
Cringely makes me cringe on his prognogs.
I do like his writing on his home tech stuff, like when he rigged up a wireless broadband relay a couple of miles long to his broadband-less house in Santa Rosa.
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Cringely makes me cringe on his prognogs.
I do like his writing on his home tech stuff, like when he rigged up a wireless broadband relay a couple of miles long to his broadband-less house in Santa Rosa.
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It will be interesting to see what effect Vista will have on the growth of global conversations and the resulting online pollution. This trend will also likely increase security risks as sites proliferate and more people expose sensitive information to hackers and identity thieves.
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It will be interesting to see what effect Vista will have on the growth of global conversations and the resulting online pollution. This trend will also likely increase security risks as sites proliferate and more people expose sensitive information to hackers and identity thieves.
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“Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. ”
Of this, I have no doubt whatsoever. Shpping windows is certainly a Herculean task (Augean stables, to be precise).
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“Shipping Window IS an order of magnitude harder than shipping OSX. ”
Of this, I have no doubt whatsoever. Shpping windows is certainly a Herculean task (Augean stables, to be precise).
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” everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it”
Sucks to be you, dude.
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” everyone here wants to ship Vista. Our pride relies on it”
Sucks to be you, dude.
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J. Random: no, actually, it doesn’t.
I wouldn’t trade our business model with Apple’s, no matter how cool Apple seems. And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.
Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though. Just watch the Media Center video I put up last night. I even brought up Steve Jobs’ jab at the complexity of our remote control.
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J. Random: no, actually, it doesn’t.
I wouldn’t trade our business model with Apple’s, no matter how cool Apple seems. And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.
Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though. Just watch the Media Center video I put up last night. I even brought up Steve Jobs’ jab at the complexity of our remote control.
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I took Cringely to be implying that Microsoft is not acting on the security experts advice, as opposed to Microsoft is not talking to them. For example, if there was consensus that ActiveX could never be secure enough would Microsoft make a fundamental change to fix it or remove it.
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I took Cringely to be implying that Microsoft is not acting on the security experts advice, as opposed to Microsoft is not talking to them. For example, if there was consensus that ActiveX could never be secure enough would Microsoft make a fundamental change to fix it or remove it.
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John: there are fundamental changes to how Windows Vista works in DIRECT response to the security community. And that’s right from their mouths, not from ours.
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John: there are fundamental changes to how Windows Vista works in DIRECT response to the security community. And that’s right from their mouths, not from ours.
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What Cringely doesn’t understand is that when we fix security issues we don’t have the luxury of breaking everybody’s existing PC and apps. You have to support the users. We could lock down Windows even more dramatically than we have, but in doing so we’ll break a ton of apps and make end users extremely frustrated.
It is easy to be a company that doesn’t support backwards compatability- most of the companies in our industry don’t view backwards compatability as a huge priority. Microsoft is committed to making sure that your apps keep working and that your PC still works (mostly) in the way that you’re used to.
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What Cringely doesn’t understand is that when we fix security issues we don’t have the luxury of breaking everybody’s existing PC and apps. You have to support the users. We could lock down Windows even more dramatically than we have, but in doing so we’ll break a ton of apps and make end users extremely frustrated.
It is easy to be a company that doesn’t support backwards compatability- most of the companies in our industry don’t view backwards compatability as a huge priority. Microsoft is committed to making sure that your apps keep working and that your PC still works (mostly) in the way that you’re used to.
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randyh has given the reason Vista won’t be secure. It’s a trade off. What I will never understand is why Microsoft doesn’t take the easy way out and fork the damn thing. If you want backward compatibility you get Vista, if you don’t need it you get Vista SE (for SEcure). A lot of people no longer want Windows to work in the way they are used to. As a matter of fact they hate it.
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randyh has given the reason Vista won’t be secure. It’s a trade off. What I will never understand is why Microsoft doesn’t take the easy way out and fork the damn thing. If you want backward compatibility you get Vista, if you don’t need it you get Vista SE (for SEcure). A lot of people no longer want Windows to work in the way they are used to. As a matter of fact they hate it.
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Alfredo: actually we are breaking a lot of apps in Vista. Howso? By forcing the default user to NOT be administrator. I know of lots of apps that were designed to only run in Admin mode.
That’s a HUGE change architecturally and culturally and one that many developers still haven’t wrapped their head around yet.
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Alfredo: actually we are breaking a lot of apps in Vista. Howso? By forcing the default user to NOT be administrator. I know of lots of apps that were designed to only run in Admin mode.
That’s a HUGE change architecturally and culturally and one that many developers still haven’t wrapped their head around yet.
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@5 and yet the average home user looks at vista and looks at Office 2007, scratches his head and says “of the two, why do I need Vista?” And now with Mac’s ability to run XP gotta believe that will raise even more questions on the value prop for Vista, particulary given what the average home user does with their PC.
Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.
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@5 and yet the average home user looks at vista and looks at Office 2007, scratches his head and says “of the two, why do I need Vista?” And now with Mac’s ability to run XP gotta believe that will raise even more questions on the value prop for Vista, particulary given what the average home user does with their PC.
Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.
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Okay, so Win95 to Win98 to WinME (Ugh!) to WinXP…to WinVista.
So at this rate of development you’re on track to ship Vista’s successor in 2017?
The most recent delay is the least of Microsoft’s problems, it’s the years of delays before this one which makes a person question if the company is capable of shipping a key piece of computing infrastructure in a timely fashion anymore.
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Okay, so Win95 to Win98 to WinME (Ugh!) to WinXP…to WinVista.
So at this rate of development you’re on track to ship Vista’s successor in 2017?
The most recent delay is the least of Microsoft’s problems, it’s the years of delays before this one which makes a person question if the company is capable of shipping a key piece of computing infrastructure in a timely fashion anymore.
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In 2 years, everyone will be asking “we waited so long for this?”. In 2 years, people will be wondering where WinFS is, where EFI support is, where monad is. Forgetting the slip in 2 years may be right, but only because other questions will be in people’s minds about the value of the product.
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In 2 years, everyone will be asking “we waited so long for this?”. In 2 years, people will be wondering where WinFS is, where EFI support is, where monad is. Forgetting the slip in 2 years may be right, but only because other questions will be in people’s minds about the value of the product.
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The real problem Microsoft has with security goes back to a few really bad choices when this whole internet thing started to go nova. ActiveX, scripting of absolutely everything, the interconnectedness of all things Windows. These were all great things from a virtuous programmer’s point of view, but they were absolute heaven for the black hats.
Does anyone else remember when Viruses used to only infect executable files? As tech support folks, we were able to tell people (completely honestly) that you could never get a virus from opening a document. That was before Microsoft created VBA. And created it in such a way as to allow a document to infect the master template of the machine it was on. Why would they do this? Because it enabled white hat programmers to do some cool things. But it was still Microsoft’s fault.
And their reaction was horrible! Alerting users that a document has a script associated with it? What good is that supposed to do, exactly? Do we expect every end-user to debug evry script that shows up within a document? The correct response was to disable the calls that allowed these pieces of malware to propgate, but that would’ve broken functionality, so it was never done.
So now we had to tell people to be careful opening documents. But don’t worry, you could never get a virus by just looking at an image. there’s nothing that really “runs” when you look at a jpg on a website. Oh. Whoops.
Vista will be more secure than XP. XP was more secure than 2000, 2000 was more secure than 98, etc. But I’ll be really surprised (and pleasantly so) if Microsoft gets security “right” in Vista. Too much baggage.
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The real problem Microsoft has with security goes back to a few really bad choices when this whole internet thing started to go nova. ActiveX, scripting of absolutely everything, the interconnectedness of all things Windows. These were all great things from a virtuous programmer’s point of view, but they were absolute heaven for the black hats.
Does anyone else remember when Viruses used to only infect executable files? As tech support folks, we were able to tell people (completely honestly) that you could never get a virus from opening a document. That was before Microsoft created VBA. And created it in such a way as to allow a document to infect the master template of the machine it was on. Why would they do this? Because it enabled white hat programmers to do some cool things. But it was still Microsoft’s fault.
And their reaction was horrible! Alerting users that a document has a script associated with it? What good is that supposed to do, exactly? Do we expect every end-user to debug evry script that shows up within a document? The correct response was to disable the calls that allowed these pieces of malware to propgate, but that would’ve broken functionality, so it was never done.
So now we had to tell people to be careful opening documents. But don’t worry, you could never get a virus by just looking at an image. there’s nothing that really “runs” when you look at a jpg on a website. Oh. Whoops.
Vista will be more secure than XP. XP was more secure than 2000, 2000 was more secure than 98, etc. But I’ll be really surprised (and pleasantly so) if Microsoft gets security “right” in Vista. Too much baggage.
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“Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though.”
Nope. It’s looking like yet another exercise in playing catch-up to Apple.
IF you actually manage to ship SP4 near the beginning of next year, Leopard will in all likelihood be out at just about the same time. So, as you’re almost catching up to Jaguar in the graphics area, Apple will be selling a product that’s two whole development cycles beyond that.
Since your major releases take six years now, you guys are in the same spot IBM was in, back around 1985 or so. You’re the legacy platform. It will take as much as ten years for the bulk of your customers to move on, but move on they will.
You’re just too overstaffed to cope, and you have too many empire builders to deal with the overstaffing in anything less than a major bloodletting, with morale crashing even lower than what I see on mini-microsoft’s blog.
MS got one or two decent products out the door once upon a time, but those days are long gone. Now, you just lurch from one debacle to the next, looking for a new enemy every couple of years (google! Adobe! Apple! Somebody!) instead of looking for new customer needs and filling them.
MS, as an organization, is brain-dead. It will take a long time for the muscles to stop twitching, but you’re history. Take the money and run.
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“Vista is looking pretty damn cool, though.”
Nope. It’s looking like yet another exercise in playing catch-up to Apple.
IF you actually manage to ship SP4 near the beginning of next year, Leopard will in all likelihood be out at just about the same time. So, as you’re almost catching up to Jaguar in the graphics area, Apple will be selling a product that’s two whole development cycles beyond that.
Since your major releases take six years now, you guys are in the same spot IBM was in, back around 1985 or so. You’re the legacy platform. It will take as much as ten years for the bulk of your customers to move on, but move on they will.
You’re just too overstaffed to cope, and you have too many empire builders to deal with the overstaffing in anything less than a major bloodletting, with morale crashing even lower than what I see on mini-microsoft’s blog.
MS got one or two decent products out the door once upon a time, but those days are long gone. Now, you just lurch from one debacle to the next, looking for a new enemy every couple of years (google! Adobe! Apple! Somebody!) instead of looking for new customer needs and filling them.
MS, as an organization, is brain-dead. It will take a long time for the muscles to stop twitching, but you’re history. Take the money and run.
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I’d like to see Microsoft invite security people from other places to Redmond so the non-Microsofties can learn from MS (yes, I am serious). Something of a security professional camp or what have you. Not a conference, more like a pow-wow, learn and share. That would be a welcome periodic event.
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I’d like to see Microsoft invite security people from other places to Redmond so the non-Microsofties can learn from MS (yes, I am serious). Something of a security professional camp or what have you. Not a conference, more like a pow-wow, learn and share. That would be a welcome periodic event.
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Ah yes, Windows security. Is this what you had in mind?
http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/cover.asp?articleid=423&zoneid=7
Its supposed to protect you from predators spying on your computer habits, but a bill Microsoft Corp. helped write for Oklahoma will open your personal information to warrantless searches, according to a computer privacy expert and a state representative.
…
That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it. Additionally, that phrase fraudulent or other illegal activities means they can:
Let the local district attorney know that you wrote a hot check last month.
Let the attorney general know that you play online poker.
Let the tax commission know you bought cartons of cigarettes and didnt pay the state tax on them. Read anything on your hard drive, such as your name, home address, personal identification code, passwords, Social Security number etc., etc., etc.
————
So this is what the experts are telling you to do? Somehow I doubt that.
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Ah yes, Windows security. Is this what you had in mind?
http://www.okgazette.com/news/templates/cover.asp?articleid=423&zoneid=7
Its supposed to protect you from predators spying on your computer habits, but a bill Microsoft Corp. helped write for Oklahoma will open your personal information to warrantless searches, according to a computer privacy expert and a state representative.
…
That means that Microsoft (or another company with such software) can erase spyware or viruses. But if you have, say, a pirated copy of Excel Microsoft (or companies with similar software) can erase it, or anything else they want to erase, and not be held liable for it. Additionally, that phrase fraudulent or other illegal activities means they can:
Let the local district attorney know that you wrote a hot check last month.
Let the attorney general know that you play online poker.
Let the tax commission know you bought cartons of cigarettes and didnt pay the state tax on them. Read anything on your hard drive, such as your name, home address, personal identification code, passwords, Social Security number etc., etc., etc.
————
So this is what the experts are telling you to do? Somehow I doubt that.
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Robert,
If MS hadn’t confused “Admin user” with “root” and allowed for better granularity in things, they wouldn’t have had a lot of the troubles they do.
I’ve no pity at all for Windows’ troubles here, because the correct way to do things was around long BEFORE windows, and you guys chose to ignore it. Suck it up princess.
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Robert,
If MS hadn’t confused “Admin user” with “root” and allowed for better granularity in things, they wouldn’t have had a lot of the troubles they do.
I’ve no pity at all for Windows’ troubles here, because the correct way to do things was around long BEFORE windows, and you guys chose to ignore it. Suck it up princess.
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17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.
Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows. Or the handwriting recognition features. Or the media sharing features like what you can do with Xbox 360 (covered in the video again).
But, you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff. It’s not true, but I’m sure there’s a few people who’ll agree with you here.
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17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.
Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows. Or the handwriting recognition features. Or the media sharing features like what you can do with Xbox 360 (covered in the video again).
But, you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff. It’s not true, but I’m sure there’s a few people who’ll agree with you here.
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@21 Er.. um.. and yet you appear to be hooked on the Sonos.
Speech recognition. Handwriting recognition? Puh, leeze. More computer science projects that MS hopes someone will buy. Answers to questions no one is asking. Everything you list here does NOT appeal to the average PC user. And it was those people that drove a lot of the demand and buzz for Win95. People lined up for Win95 because it was quite the change from Windows 3.1 and Windows For Winos (WFW). Vista is not the same type of change, at least from the average consumer’s perspective. Sure, people that might live all day in front of their PC’s MAY like it, but the masses are not clamoring for like they were Win95. Ballmer is going to wake up frustrated from his wet dream.
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@21 Er.. um.. and yet you appear to be hooked on the Sonos.
Speech recognition. Handwriting recognition? Puh, leeze. More computer science projects that MS hopes someone will buy. Answers to questions no one is asking. Everything you list here does NOT appeal to the average PC user. And it was those people that drove a lot of the demand and buzz for Win95. People lined up for Win95 because it was quite the change from Windows 3.1 and Windows For Winos (WFW). Vista is not the same type of change, at least from the average consumer’s perspective. Sure, people that might live all day in front of their PC’s MAY like it, but the masses are not clamoring for like they were Win95. Ballmer is going to wake up frustrated from his wet dream.
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” You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. ”
If you want someone to watch your video, try posting it in an open format. It doesn’t play in VLC, and Flip4Mac doesn’t want to open it either.
“Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows.”
Apple’s speech recognition works quite well. If I want a dictation product, then I’d use Dragon Naturally Speaking or IBM ViaVoice.
Speaking of speech recognition, are you sure you want to bring that up? I mean, after monkey-boy went berzerk over an eminent speech researcher leaving the Evil Empire for Google and all?
“Or the handwriting recognition features”
Really? Does it work better than this? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/inkwell/ Show me.
” you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff.”
I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “cool stuff” when describing how their products put yours to shame.
Dude, that’s why you’re history. Sure, Apple’s stuff is cool, but you make a grievous mistake if you think it’s only about “cool”. “Cool” is a side effect of it being GOOD. The Mac is *reliable*. It’s *easy to use*. It’s well thought-out. It’s highly consistent. That’s a whole lot more important than cool will ever be.
Jobs said that you have no taste, but he really missed the heart of the matter. The real problem is that you have no DEPTH. Taste is a part of that, but it’s that lack of depth that makes you consitently implement a feature just to be able to check off a box on a brochure, but not to do it well, or seriously consider how to make it work with the system as a whole. As a friend of mine (now at Google, as it happens) once put it, your products asymptotically approach usefulness, but never actually converge upon it.
Now, I know that you have people in the Empire who CAN do this; I’ve met several of them, but they are thwarted by the organization. MS is run by a marketing dweeb who knows how to be a cuthroat, but has no clue at all how to run a creative effort. I mean, the clown actually declared that IBM is your new enemy a couple of weeks back. HELLO! It’s 2006! IBM is in the SERVICES business, and if you think you’re going to beat them with a hoard of MSCEs, you’ve got another think coming.
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” You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. ”
If you want someone to watch your video, try posting it in an open format. It doesn’t play in VLC, and Flip4Mac doesn’t want to open it either.
“Apple also doesn’t have anything like the speech recognition that’s going in Windows.”
Apple’s speech recognition works quite well. If I want a dictation product, then I’d use Dragon Naturally Speaking or IBM ViaVoice.
Speaking of speech recognition, are you sure you want to bring that up? I mean, after monkey-boy went berzerk over an eminent speech researcher leaving the Evil Empire for Google and all?
“Or the handwriting recognition features”
Really? Does it work better than this? http://www.apple.com/macosx/features/inkwell/ Show me.
” you keep repeating that Apple has all the cool stuff.”
I don’t think I’ve ever used the phrase “cool stuff” when describing how their products put yours to shame.
Dude, that’s why you’re history. Sure, Apple’s stuff is cool, but you make a grievous mistake if you think it’s only about “cool”. “Cool” is a side effect of it being GOOD. The Mac is *reliable*. It’s *easy to use*. It’s well thought-out. It’s highly consistent. That’s a whole lot more important than cool will ever be.
Jobs said that you have no taste, but he really missed the heart of the matter. The real problem is that you have no DEPTH. Taste is a part of that, but it’s that lack of depth that makes you consitently implement a feature just to be able to check off a box on a brochure, but not to do it well, or seriously consider how to make it work with the system as a whole. As a friend of mine (now at Google, as it happens) once put it, your products asymptotically approach usefulness, but never actually converge upon it.
Now, I know that you have people in the Empire who CAN do this; I’ve met several of them, but they are thwarted by the organization. MS is run by a marketing dweeb who knows how to be a cuthroat, but has no clue at all how to run a creative effort. I mean, the clown actually declared that IBM is your new enemy a couple of weeks back. HELLO! It’s 2006! IBM is in the SERVICES business, and if you think you’re going to beat them with a hoard of MSCEs, you’ve got another think coming.
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Robert said:
“In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.”
Well, I don’t know about people forgetting that it slipped, but they will end up not caring about the tardiness, simply because of the quality of the product. The quality I’ve seen so far is impressive.
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Robert said:
“In two years no one will remember we slipped. But they will remember whether or not this was a high-quality OS.”
Well, I don’t know about people forgetting that it slipped, but they will end up not caring about the tardiness, simply because of the quality of the product. The quality I’ve seen so far is impressive.
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J. Random: I went PC shopping today. I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. I didn’t find one with tuners built in. I didn’t find one that could display its video on an Xbox or any other game console for that matter.
Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.
Oh, one other reason? You can get an HP with decent specs for about $1,200. The Apple is about $2,000 for one that has better specs (the other ones aren’t as good as the $1,200 HP laptop).
The Mac is very tempting, but not for $800 more.
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J. Random: I went PC shopping today. I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. I didn’t find one with tuners built in. I didn’t find one that could display its video on an Xbox or any other game console for that matter.
Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.
Oh, one other reason? You can get an HP with decent specs for about $1,200. The Apple is about $2,000 for one that has better specs (the other ones aren’t as good as the $1,200 HP laptop).
The Mac is very tempting, but not for $800 more.
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Robert, in post #25.
Would you just give it a rest re:
* Mac’s not having handwriting recognition, or not having this oar that media feature.
Your point about this is really getting old as you repeat it everytime someone says something nice about the Mac or says Apple does this or that better than MicroSoft. These have nothing to do with Apple’s small market share, and you know it.
Your last two paragraphs are also just wrong, silly and immature.
You can do better than this Robert. Geez.
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Robert, in post #25.
Would you just give it a rest re:
* Mac’s not having handwriting recognition, or not having this oar that media feature.
Your point about this is really getting old as you repeat it everytime someone says something nice about the Mac or says Apple does this or that better than MicroSoft. These have nothing to do with Apple’s small market share, and you know it.
Your last two paragraphs are also just wrong, silly and immature.
You can do better than this Robert. Geez.
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When I stated earlier that we won’t break apps, I mean ALL of the apps. Obviously some apps are broken with every release, and Vista may break more than others, but fundamentally it is a trade off. Anyone who truly understands security knows that security is a tradeoff. Absolute security will provided limited utility to end users in many cases. You have to strike the right balance and focus on certain scenarios- I think we’re doing that Vista and making strides.
For Microsoft to be criticized that it has dealt with security as a business problem seems unfortunate to me. If Microsoft had called a “do over”, broken all of the old apps and “broken” the users (forced them to relearn everything) the criticism would be much worse. People who really understand security know that Microsoft’s efforts are meaningful. People that truly understand operating systems know that various flavors of UNIX, Linux, the OS X and others have their own security problems as well.
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When I stated earlier that we won’t break apps, I mean ALL of the apps. Obviously some apps are broken with every release, and Vista may break more than others, but fundamentally it is a trade off. Anyone who truly understands security knows that security is a tradeoff. Absolute security will provided limited utility to end users in many cases. You have to strike the right balance and focus on certain scenarios- I think we’re doing that Vista and making strides.
For Microsoft to be criticized that it has dealt with security as a business problem seems unfortunate to me. If Microsoft had called a “do over”, broken all of the old apps and “broken” the users (forced them to relearn everything) the criticism would be much worse. People who really understand security know that Microsoft’s efforts are meaningful. People that truly understand operating systems know that various flavors of UNIX, Linux, the OS X and others have their own security problems as well.
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@21 scobelizer wrote: “17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.”
I watched that video. Do you mean things like the Ken Burns Effect?
http://www.apple.com/support/iphoto/tutorial/iphotoTutorial_t5.html
http://www.apple.com/macmini/frontrow.html (click “Photos”)
Or maybe the vertical and horizontal menus/submenus?
I’m not saying Apple or Sony invented these features, just that they currently exist in very similar forms for what you/Microsoft seem to be taking credit or act like they’re new. Yes, Microsoft is dressing them up using shading, transparency, etc. that will only be available on hardware that supports all of Windows Presentation Foundation features, but improving upon someone else’s idea isn’t the same thing as innovation.
Besides, you’re comparing upcoming features in Vista MCE with Apple’s current offerings. While you like to give us a peek behind the curtain to see how “cool” Microsoft’s offerings are going to be, you have absolutely no basis to say conclusively that “Apple has nothing like this”.
Your statement once again show how Microsoft arrogantly claims credit or exclusivity for ideas and features that can already be found elsewhere.
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@21 scobelizer wrote: “17: really. You should watch the Media Center video again that I posted last night. Apple has nothing like it.”
I watched that video. Do you mean things like the Ken Burns Effect?
http://www.apple.com/support/iphoto/tutorial/iphotoTutorial_t5.html
http://www.apple.com/macmini/frontrow.html (click “Photos”)
Or maybe the vertical and horizontal menus/submenus?
I’m not saying Apple or Sony invented these features, just that they currently exist in very similar forms for what you/Microsoft seem to be taking credit or act like they’re new. Yes, Microsoft is dressing them up using shading, transparency, etc. that will only be available on hardware that supports all of Windows Presentation Foundation features, but improving upon someone else’s idea isn’t the same thing as innovation.
Besides, you’re comparing upcoming features in Vista MCE with Apple’s current offerings. While you like to give us a peek behind the curtain to see how “cool” Microsoft’s offerings are going to be, you have absolutely no basis to say conclusively that “Apple has nothing like this”.
Your statement once again show how Microsoft arrogantly claims credit or exclusivity for ideas and features that can already be found elsewhere.
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The line about each version of windows having more security, reminds me that each new version of cars ir more rigid than the last one, prompting one car magazine writer to ask: “What were the first cars made of? Jello?”
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The line about each version of windows having more security, reminds me that each new version of cars ir more rigid than the last one, prompting one car magazine writer to ask: “What were the first cars made of? Jello?”
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“I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. ”
Yeah, we know how important it is to you to pretend that “tablet PC” is a viable product. I’m sure you were disappointed at the underwhelming public reaction to “origami”.
I have a Wacom pad right next to my keyboard here, which I can use to write text. I don’t use it for that, because I type at about 80 wpm.
If I want a tuner, I’ll get it from El Gato. They do very fine work.
“Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.”
Read the last two paragraphs I wrote above, and maybe you’ll figure out why Apple’s market share is climbing, and you’re losing ground to Linux.
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“I didn’t find an Apple that I could write on. ”
Yeah, we know how important it is to you to pretend that “tablet PC” is a viable product. I’m sure you were disappointed at the underwhelming public reaction to “origami”.
I have a Wacom pad right next to my keyboard here, which I can use to write text. I don’t use it for that, because I type at about 80 wpm.
If I want a tuner, I’ll get it from El Gato. They do very fine work.
“Maybe that explains why Apple’s market share is about 4%.”
Read the last two paragraphs I wrote above, and maybe you’ll figure out why Apple’s market share is climbing, and you’re losing ground to Linux.
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Robert,
Stop raising strawmen, it’s stupid, and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it. Handwriting recognition does not require a Tablet featureset and you know this. I don’t care how angry you get, don’t be dumb. OS X has had handwriting recognition built in to the OS for some years now, voice recognition too. You know this, and if you didn’t, then ask your friggin’ brother who works at Apple, or your *son* who has an iBook.
As far as a tuner, you can get one from a third party. Why you would want one is a different story, but they are available.
As well, your “HP with decent specs for $1200”? If you’re not going to post the specs, then stop pulling a McCarthy, and waving your “list of names” around but not letting anyone see it.
Stupid-arsed replies like that just make you look like the tool people like to accuse you of being.
Don’t be dumb.
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Robert,
Stop raising strawmen, it’s stupid, and you should be ashamed of yourself for doing it. Handwriting recognition does not require a Tablet featureset and you know this. I don’t care how angry you get, don’t be dumb. OS X has had handwriting recognition built in to the OS for some years now, voice recognition too. You know this, and if you didn’t, then ask your friggin’ brother who works at Apple, or your *son* who has an iBook.
As far as a tuner, you can get one from a third party. Why you would want one is a different story, but they are available.
As well, your “HP with decent specs for $1200”? If you’re not going to post the specs, then stop pulling a McCarthy, and waving your “list of names” around but not letting anyone see it.
Stupid-arsed replies like that just make you look like the tool people like to accuse you of being.
Don’t be dumb.
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Okay, show of hands of the majority of the PC buying public: “How many want handwriting recognition on their PC? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?” I didn’t think so. Show of hands, how many want a tuner as part of their PC? Anyone? Anyone?” I didn’t think so, either.
If Window Media Centers are so flippin cool and life changing, how come nary any AV store sells them? Hell, you’d think that since there is such demand for them, AudioVisual stores would carry them as “better alternatives” to traditional AV equipment. I wonder why they don’t? Hmmmm.. And, if the WMC is the be all and end all to your home entertaiment solution, why the hell are you singing the praises of Sonos?
Good god, man! Do even bother to talk to a normal everyday computer user? For that matter, does Microsoft even do that? And, no the people you hang with don’t qualify.
This is becoming more and more typical of you lately, Scoble. You make statements as if they are facts, but fail to support them with any data. Like John says, it makes you look dumb and simply a tool.
I mean what a stupid argument. “The HP at $1200 has decent specs but the Apple, with better specs is $2000. Not worth the extra $800.” Then it’s not a comparison!!!! That’s like saying. “I can buy a decent Chevy, but a Lexus has better features and is more expensive, but it’s not worth the extra money”. I mean, huh? Why not do the typical apples to apples comparison.
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Okay, show of hands of the majority of the PC buying public: “How many want handwriting recognition on their PC? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?” I didn’t think so. Show of hands, how many want a tuner as part of their PC? Anyone? Anyone?” I didn’t think so, either.
If Window Media Centers are so flippin cool and life changing, how come nary any AV store sells them? Hell, you’d think that since there is such demand for them, AudioVisual stores would carry them as “better alternatives” to traditional AV equipment. I wonder why they don’t? Hmmmm.. And, if the WMC is the be all and end all to your home entertaiment solution, why the hell are you singing the praises of Sonos?
Good god, man! Do even bother to talk to a normal everyday computer user? For that matter, does Microsoft even do that? And, no the people you hang with don’t qualify.
This is becoming more and more typical of you lately, Scoble. You make statements as if they are facts, but fail to support them with any data. Like John says, it makes you look dumb and simply a tool.
I mean what a stupid argument. “The HP at $1200 has decent specs but the Apple, with better specs is $2000. Not worth the extra $800.” Then it’s not a comparison!!!! That’s like saying. “I can buy a decent Chevy, but a Lexus has better features and is more expensive, but it’s not worth the extra money”. I mean, huh? Why not do the typical apples to apples comparison.
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Dmad: more than a million sold of Tablet PCs. (And the number is going dramatically up lately).
About 1/3 of all PCs sold have Media Center. But, nah, they aren’t viable products. Go ahead and believe that. You sound like the guy who used to say “who needs a Mac? We don’t need Windows and a toy mouse!” (Seriously, in the 1980s I had people tell me that too).
I talk with LOTS of normal people. I hung out at the computer stores yesterday talking with lots of them. And, yes, people are trying to do more things with their PCs. Why don’t YOU go into a store?
Heck, if you’re right, then all everyone needs is a $800 laptop or a $500 desktop.
John: When I say handwriting recognition, I mean the whole system. I went looking at Macs yesterday. I didn’t find ANY that let you write on their screens. So what if it has some software? It doesn’t let you do handwriting recognition. Most consumers look at the total product, not the software.
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Dmad: more than a million sold of Tablet PCs. (And the number is going dramatically up lately).
About 1/3 of all PCs sold have Media Center. But, nah, they aren’t viable products. Go ahead and believe that. You sound like the guy who used to say “who needs a Mac? We don’t need Windows and a toy mouse!” (Seriously, in the 1980s I had people tell me that too).
I talk with LOTS of normal people. I hung out at the computer stores yesterday talking with lots of them. And, yes, people are trying to do more things with their PCs. Why don’t YOU go into a store?
Heck, if you’re right, then all everyone needs is a $800 laptop or a $500 desktop.
John: When I say handwriting recognition, I mean the whole system. I went looking at Macs yesterday. I didn’t find ANY that let you write on their screens. So what if it has some software? It doesn’t let you do handwriting recognition. Most consumers look at the total product, not the software.
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Folks on both sides, let it go. There’s too many people out there on BOTH sides of the platform fence who firmly believe that your choice of OS is an indication of your charector. For instance, despite the fact I am on record as using a number of different OS’s (Viva la Puppy Linux!) and am excited about OSX on Intel, I actually got a death threat over my recent comments regarding how much I think Apple can improve on their security bulletins for their patches.
I read threads like this with people using phrases like “you should be ashamed” or calling people “monkeys” over what is basically a preference that has no justification whatsoever for insulting someone’s intelligence. Just when I think technoogy folk are a cut above the rest of the population in our ability to reason, all I can think about are how the Apple/Linux/Windows zealotry is no different than the ignorant people of the world who invest time and money into buying copyright violating stickers of calvin pissing on [opposing viewpoint] to proudly display on their cars.
I grew up in the computing days of Apple IIe’s, Atari 800’s, Commodore 64’s, and IBM PC’s and owned all of them, sometimes simultaneously. I can’t imagine a world where I didn’t have several overlapping tools for what is essentially the same job. Some people simply dont need a pen/handwriting enabled OS. And some people think that simply having it, even if you use it, makes you a chump because of who provides it.
Sheesh.
Let’s just all take a deep breath. They’re just devices. There are bigger problems in the world than how much emotion you invest over someone’s choice of OS/Hardware platform.
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Folks on both sides, let it go. There’s too many people out there on BOTH sides of the platform fence who firmly believe that your choice of OS is an indication of your charector. For instance, despite the fact I am on record as using a number of different OS’s (Viva la Puppy Linux!) and am excited about OSX on Intel, I actually got a death threat over my recent comments regarding how much I think Apple can improve on their security bulletins for their patches.
I read threads like this with people using phrases like “you should be ashamed” or calling people “monkeys” over what is basically a preference that has no justification whatsoever for insulting someone’s intelligence. Just when I think technoogy folk are a cut above the rest of the population in our ability to reason, all I can think about are how the Apple/Linux/Windows zealotry is no different than the ignorant people of the world who invest time and money into buying copyright violating stickers of calvin pissing on [opposing viewpoint] to proudly display on their cars.
I grew up in the computing days of Apple IIe’s, Atari 800’s, Commodore 64’s, and IBM PC’s and owned all of them, sometimes simultaneously. I can’t imagine a world where I didn’t have several overlapping tools for what is essentially the same job. Some people simply dont need a pen/handwriting enabled OS. And some people think that simply having it, even if you use it, makes you a chump because of who provides it.
Sheesh.
Let’s just all take a deep breath. They’re just devices. There are bigger problems in the world than how much emotion you invest over someone’s choice of OS/Hardware platform.
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@33. Sure people are trying to more with their PC’s. But is Vista providing that? Again, normal people are more excited about Office 2007 than Vista. Few people care about an OS like the used to. Just curious, how many tablets and WMC’s did you see walk out the door vs typical PC’s during your “survey” yesterday? None I’m guessing.
I see you haven’t backed up your contention that you can get just a decent a PC as a Mac, functionality-wise, for the same price.
Hmmm..more than million Tablets. Over what period of time? Since they were introduced in 2002? If so, that’s not something to be very proud of. That’s about 250,000 a year. Compared with.. what? 180MM PC’s per year? Seems like Michael Dell craps 250,000 pc’s a year. Yep. I clearly see the demand for handwriting recognition PC’s. Again, do some research before taking a postion. Using your logic, it seems users don’t think it’s worth and extra $250-$500 to scribble on their screen. Gotta believe they’ll apply that extra money to a more powerful, smaller, lighter laptop, with more battery power. Face it, the Tablet is a nice market PC. Heathcare and education mainly. Nothing wrong with that. But quit trying to convince people it is a mainstream product.
That mac Mini isn’t a bad %500 desktop 😉
Don’t get me wrong. WMC has a place. Bought one for my daughter when she headed off to college. It’s a great solution for her in her dorm room. I just don’t seem them replacing many of the existing (and better) home enterainment solutions. Call me silly, but I prefer the right tool for the job. Sure, I could use aswiss army knife to do a lot of things. But when I want a screwdriver for a job that calls for a screwdriver, I’ll use a screwdriver.
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@33. Sure people are trying to more with their PC’s. But is Vista providing that? Again, normal people are more excited about Office 2007 than Vista. Few people care about an OS like the used to. Just curious, how many tablets and WMC’s did you see walk out the door vs typical PC’s during your “survey” yesterday? None I’m guessing.
I see you haven’t backed up your contention that you can get just a decent a PC as a Mac, functionality-wise, for the same price.
Hmmm..more than million Tablets. Over what period of time? Since they were introduced in 2002? If so, that’s not something to be very proud of. That’s about 250,000 a year. Compared with.. what? 180MM PC’s per year? Seems like Michael Dell craps 250,000 pc’s a year. Yep. I clearly see the demand for handwriting recognition PC’s. Again, do some research before taking a postion. Using your logic, it seems users don’t think it’s worth and extra $250-$500 to scribble on their screen. Gotta believe they’ll apply that extra money to a more powerful, smaller, lighter laptop, with more battery power. Face it, the Tablet is a nice market PC. Heathcare and education mainly. Nothing wrong with that. But quit trying to convince people it is a mainstream product.
That mac Mini isn’t a bad %500 desktop 😉
Don’t get me wrong. WMC has a place. Bought one for my daughter when she headed off to college. It’s a great solution for her in her dorm room. I just don’t seem them replacing many of the existing (and better) home enterainment solutions. Call me silly, but I prefer the right tool for the job. Sure, I could use aswiss army knife to do a lot of things. But when I want a screwdriver for a job that calls for a screwdriver, I’ll use a screwdriver.
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Robert,
Again, *every* mac ships with handwriting recognition. What they don’t ship with is tablet functionality. However, at least I know that when I buy a copy of OS X, I don’t have to worry about which version. There’s one. Not Mac OS X Home, Mac OS X Pro, Mac OS X Media Center, Mac OS X Tablet, Mac OS X Stick your hand in my pocked with yet another SKU.
One version. Has Handwriting recognition built in. That’s a fact. If you want to tell me it’s not there, I’ll post the directory listings for you. Really. You don’t want to argue this bit with me, you’ll lose, and you know it.
Apple doesn’t ship a tablet. They may do so in the future, they may not. However, when you hook up hardware that allows you to make use of Handwriting recognition, the feature loads and works. No different version of the OS needed. It just works. No “OMG, YOU ATTACHED A TABLET, LOAD THE DRIVERS NOWWWWWW!!!” crap. It just works.
As far as what people look for, well, again, strawman. What (random person) is looking for has nothing to do with the question of “Does Apple ship Handwriting Recognition in every copy of Mac OS X?” The answer to that is “Yes”. Period.
I trust i’ve made this point.
Oh, and again, if you aren’t going to tell us the Model of the HP you’re talking about, then stop even bringing it up, as based on the proof you’ve given, one can easily say you’re completely wrong, and have the exact same amount of proof as you’ve supplied.
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Robert,
Again, *every* mac ships with handwriting recognition. What they don’t ship with is tablet functionality. However, at least I know that when I buy a copy of OS X, I don’t have to worry about which version. There’s one. Not Mac OS X Home, Mac OS X Pro, Mac OS X Media Center, Mac OS X Tablet, Mac OS X Stick your hand in my pocked with yet another SKU.
One version. Has Handwriting recognition built in. That’s a fact. If you want to tell me it’s not there, I’ll post the directory listings for you. Really. You don’t want to argue this bit with me, you’ll lose, and you know it.
Apple doesn’t ship a tablet. They may do so in the future, they may not. However, when you hook up hardware that allows you to make use of Handwriting recognition, the feature loads and works. No different version of the OS needed. It just works. No “OMG, YOU ATTACHED A TABLET, LOAD THE DRIVERS NOWWWWWW!!!” crap. It just works.
As far as what people look for, well, again, strawman. What (random person) is looking for has nothing to do with the question of “Does Apple ship Handwriting Recognition in every copy of Mac OS X?” The answer to that is “Yes”. Period.
I trust i’ve made this point.
Oh, and again, if you aren’t going to tell us the Model of the HP you’re talking about, then stop even bringing it up, as based on the proof you’ve given, one can easily say you’re completely wrong, and have the exact same amount of proof as you’ve supplied.
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“more than a million sold of Tablet PCs.”
In HOW many years now?
The horse is dead, robert. Quit flogging it.
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“more than a million sold of Tablet PCs.”
In HOW many years now?
The horse is dead, robert. Quit flogging it.
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maybe that 16-year old boy is right. but all methods he had tried to hack into IE7 might cover only some popular exploits. in general, when a new way to exploit is found out, the thereafter bugs/defects/vulnerabilities will be dig out one by one…
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maybe that 16-year old boy is right. but all methods he had tried to hack into IE7 might cover only some popular exploits. in general, when a new way to exploit is found out, the thereafter bugs/defects/vulnerabilities will be dig out one by one…
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oops. Meant to say the Tablet is a niche market
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oops. Meant to say the Tablet is a niche market
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“And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.”
Or instead of going back to 1989, just look at the present. I don’t think Windows has ever been ‘cool’ and it still isn’t (talking about shipping products, not dreamed up future plans or alpha-gamma-beta builds).
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“And there have been times in history when Apple was FAR cooler and FAR more ahead of Windows than it currently is. Just go back to 1989.”
Or instead of going back to 1989, just look at the present. I don’t think Windows has ever been ‘cool’ and it still isn’t (talking about shipping products, not dreamed up future plans or alpha-gamma-beta builds).
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“Dmad: more than a million sold of Tablet PCs. (And the number is going dramatically up lately).”
Is that a number to be proud of? That number is miniscule compared to the amount of laptops sold every year.
And is that ‘million sold’ this year? Or altogether? If it’s 1 million sold ever, that’s just pathetic.
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“Dmad: more than a million sold of Tablet PCs. (And the number is going dramatically up lately).”
Is that a number to be proud of? That number is miniscule compared to the amount of laptops sold every year.
And is that ‘million sold’ this year? Or altogether? If it’s 1 million sold ever, that’s just pathetic.
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“Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.”
But it’s got a sidebar! And it’s got this really innovative browser with … wait for it…. tabbed browsing! You can’t get that stuff anywhere else.
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“Still haven’t heard why Vista will enable a home user to surf the internet better, read their email better, type letters better, or store photos so much better that it is worth the price and pain of upgrading.”
But it’s got a sidebar! And it’s got this really innovative browser with … wait for it…. tabbed browsing! You can’t get that stuff anywhere else.
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amazing!!! http://www.alkol.bwestvirginia.com
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amazing!!! http://www.alkol.bwestvirginia.com
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