I’ve heard many rumors about Riya over the past few weeks. One strong rumor, reported by Om Malik, among others, was that Riya was getting purchased by Google.
I know our M&A guys had met with Riya too and had passed on the deal after negotiations got too expensive (translation someone else had bid more than we were willing to pay). So, I was suprised that during the past few days I had heard that Riya’s deal with Google wasn’t going to happen.
Today Munjal, Riya’s CEO, said on his blog that they were going to continue on as an independent firm and that the rumors are incorrect.
This is actually very good for Microsoft and Yahoo. Why? Cause this team is high quality and the technology is great (I’ve been using the alpha recently and like it a lot).
Now, why doesn’t Microsoft purchase them? Well, I’ve been in contact with our M&A folks. We have a lot of NIH syndrome here cause we have similar technology that our research teams have developed. I’ve seen our photo/face recognition capabilities and they are pretty cool too and, indeed, are better in some areas and not as good in others.
But, digitial photography is too big a deal to ignore Riya even if you think you’ve got their technology covered. Imagine Yahoo buys this company and matches them up with the Flickr team. Oh, boy, would that make Yahoo a photo powerhouse. When I was in Paris at various tourist destinations I talked with lots of people using digital cameras. They are looking for better ways to manage their digital photos. Riya’s approach will gain high usage quickly. I think even quicker than Flickr got picked up.
Anyway, Munjal is definitely a guy to watch and Riya is definitely a company to watch.
I think ultimately this will prove to be a bigger deal longterm than AOL’s deal with Google.
Oh, and Om Malik’s reporting was on base. I had heard the same rumors too but knew that the deal could blow up, which is why I didn’t report it. That’s a cautionary tale for folks who work for, manage, or invest in startups. Don’t get excited until the deal is inked. They might tell you the deal is done, but it can always blow up. Oh, I wish I could have been inside the meetings where this stuff went on.
Anyway, hey, Bill and Steve, let’s take another look at Riya! Either way, I’m a gonna be a happy customer of Riya as soon as they ship. Right now the recognition engine and UI need some work, but it’s improving quite rapidly.
Here’s the investor’s view from Peter Rip and an answer to Peter from Tech Crunch’s Michael Arrington.
Scobleizer 
How come ‘steve’ comes into picture with bill in last para?
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How come ‘steve’ comes into picture with bill in last para?
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Abhishek: cause Steve has billions in his portfolio too and is the CEO here if you haven’t heard.
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Abhishek: cause Steve has billions in his portfolio too and is the CEO here if you haven’t heard.
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Why on earth would you acquire a company who’s primary product still needs work?
What I mean is, if their face recognition software was really THAT good, wouldn’t the government be talking to them?
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Why on earth would you acquire a company who’s primary product still needs work?
What I mean is, if their face recognition software was really THAT good, wouldn’t the government be talking to them?
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>Why on earth would you acquire a company who’s primary product still needs work?
Because there’s a future there? Because the team is smart? Because they have done something no one else has done?
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>Why on earth would you acquire a company who’s primary product still needs work?
Because there’s a future there? Because the team is smart? Because they have done something no one else has done?
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What has Riya invented? You think face detection software was invented recently? Face detection is at least a three decade old niche market, and there are plenty of vendors out there.
Face detection software is 1,000 lines of code.
And it does not work.
It cannot work and it is by design.
Face detection is way too sensitive to ambiant properties like light, and similarities between everyone else’s face, and dissimalirities between your own face taken for instance at different hours of the day (without even putting a hat on or glasses or anything).
Most good face detection software reach 80% accuracy, but it means nothing because in most cases you are comparing a small corpus of pictures. A single false positive makes it insuitable for industrial purposes. Hint, Riya may become a good family and friends software.
2% of accuracy improvement takes a decade to get.
Most importantly, the information needed to match two pictures accurately is often not in the pictures. Training-based software based on statistical laws is doomed, because it’s not looking at the right thing. It’s missing info that is not accessible. Equivalently, Google can only index what’s published on the web in the first place.
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What has Riya invented? You think face detection software was invented recently? Face detection is at least a three decade old niche market, and there are plenty of vendors out there.
Face detection software is 1,000 lines of code.
And it does not work.
It cannot work and it is by design.
Face detection is way too sensitive to ambiant properties like light, and similarities between everyone else’s face, and dissimalirities between your own face taken for instance at different hours of the day (without even putting a hat on or glasses or anything).
Most good face detection software reach 80% accuracy, but it means nothing because in most cases you are comparing a small corpus of pictures. A single false positive makes it insuitable for industrial purposes. Hint, Riya may become a good family and friends software.
2% of accuracy improvement takes a decade to get.
Most importantly, the information needed to match two pictures accurately is often not in the pictures. Training-based software based on statistical laws is doomed, because it’s not looking at the right thing. It’s missing info that is not accessible. Equivalently, Google can only index what’s published on the web in the first place.
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Stephane: it’s not 1,000 lines of code. I think your analysis is very simplistic.
But, Riya never said they did face detection. Have you tried its technology? It works in a way that even when it doesn’t work it still is more satisfying than what we have today.
And, should we just ignore hard problems forever?
Oh, and if you talk with Munjal you’ll learn that the detection Riya uses actually relies on other NON FACE hints.
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Stephane: it’s not 1,000 lines of code. I think your analysis is very simplistic.
But, Riya never said they did face detection. Have you tried its technology? It works in a way that even when it doesn’t work it still is more satisfying than what we have today.
And, should we just ignore hard problems forever?
Oh, and if you talk with Munjal you’ll learn that the detection Riya uses actually relies on other NON FACE hints.
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When I said 1,000, I said that the barrier to entry to making face detection software is very low. So ok, let’s say 2,000.
“Have you tried its technology?” No. I know a bit about that subject from the R&D perspective. You know, pretty much in all R&D of the worlds, some individuals or teams are working on the subject. My gripe is against you trying to tell us that it’s new, etc. You are the one being simplistic. Researchers know very well the limitations of the approach.
“And, should we just ignore hard problems forever?” Ok, this is *GREAT* to try to tackle this. As much as automated text translation and so on. But my only point was that there is a limit that everybody bumps into, and that limit is that you need info that is not in the pictures.
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When I said 1,000, I said that the barrier to entry to making face detection software is very low. So ok, let’s say 2,000.
“Have you tried its technology?” No. I know a bit about that subject from the R&D perspective. You know, pretty much in all R&D of the worlds, some individuals or teams are working on the subject. My gripe is against you trying to tell us that it’s new, etc. You are the one being simplistic. Researchers know very well the limitations of the approach.
“And, should we just ignore hard problems forever?” Ok, this is *GREAT* to try to tackle this. As much as automated text translation and so on. But my only point was that there is a limit that everybody bumps into, and that limit is that you need info that is not in the pictures.
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>My gripe is against you trying to tell us that it’s new, etc.
Riya is the first one to ship a consumer-based service that works on my pictures for free.
That’s new.
Face detection might not be new. But, then, there really isn’t anything that’s new, is there? The mouse was 25 years old when the first Mac came out.
It’s pretty clear you haven’t used the tech. If you had you would be arguing something else. But, whatever.
If you think face detection only takes 2,000 lines of code you’re using far better drugs than my Merlot of choice. Have you ever even worked on any of this stuff? Have you talked with people who’ve done it?
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>My gripe is against you trying to tell us that it’s new, etc.
Riya is the first one to ship a consumer-based service that works on my pictures for free.
That’s new.
Face detection might not be new. But, then, there really isn’t anything that’s new, is there? The mouse was 25 years old when the first Mac came out.
It’s pretty clear you haven’t used the tech. If you had you would be arguing something else. But, whatever.
If you think face detection only takes 2,000 lines of code you’re using far better drugs than my Merlot of choice. Have you ever even worked on any of this stuff? Have you talked with people who’ve done it?
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On the “new” topic, you are adding buzz when the CEO said “well, we’ll stay on the quiet side for a while”. I don’t know what you are up to, though.
>>But, then, there really isn’t anything that’s new, is there?
I disagree. New is when you make a brutal change to an everlasting problem for instance. I have read the blog maintained by the alpha testers, and seeing words I use to read in that domain space, my BS meter has peaked.
“If you think face detection only takes 2,000 lines of code” Scoble, since when have you written a piece of code? I’d love to see one 😉 Seriously, it’s about creating a hash key of a picture and comparing it to another. You can spend a decade changing the damping factors in your hash key algorithm. Mostly in vain though, when you happen to change the corpus of pictures you need to redo that again and again.
First consumer product? Well I don’t think search engines agree with you on that one. http://tinyurl.com/dwb8t, http://tinyurl.com/daf3k
And for the question about it, I currently sell motion detection video software, so you may guess I have an image processing library.
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On the “new” topic, you are adding buzz when the CEO said “well, we’ll stay on the quiet side for a while”. I don’t know what you are up to, though.
>>But, then, there really isn’t anything that’s new, is there?
I disagree. New is when you make a brutal change to an everlasting problem for instance. I have read the blog maintained by the alpha testers, and seeing words I use to read in that domain space, my BS meter has peaked.
“If you think face detection only takes 2,000 lines of code” Scoble, since when have you written a piece of code? I’d love to see one 😉 Seriously, it’s about creating a hash key of a picture and comparing it to another. You can spend a decade changing the damping factors in your hash key algorithm. Mostly in vain though, when you happen to change the corpus of pictures you need to redo that again and again.
First consumer product? Well I don’t think search engines agree with you on that one. http://tinyurl.com/dwb8t, http://tinyurl.com/daf3k
And for the question about it, I currently sell motion detection video software, so you may guess I have an image processing library.
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Hahahah, I knew it, something was soooo fishy here, I couldn’t put my finger on it then. But I predicted this outcome. It was 5-6 sources relying on ONE SINGLE SOURCE, yah slap-happy rumor-mongering bloggers. They played with a time bomb, it blew up in their face. So much for all Shel’s and Rubel’s toking this up. Hahah. I hope this Web 2.0 faux rot goes down in flames. I wonder if they pulled, just because a certain someone leaked? Wouldn’t that be choice? 🙂 Feel sorry for Tara tho. But ‘Christopher’s Law’ says: If Scoble is advocating a purchase, you know it’s a short sell.
I think ultimately this will prove to be a bigger deal longterm than AOL’s deal with Google.
Now you are just totally crazy. And Google’s deal with AOL, was an end-result of trainwrecked year of meetings between MFST and AOL. AOL didn’t trust MSN to deliver, they thought you’d abandon and get interested others things like Vista/Office. Frankly MFST should abandon this ill-fated web questing and just get back to making and shipping great software. Never mind the Live/AJAX/Web 2.0 hype.
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Hahahah, I knew it, something was soooo fishy here, I couldn’t put my finger on it then. But I predicted this outcome. It was 5-6 sources relying on ONE SINGLE SOURCE, yah slap-happy rumor-mongering bloggers. They played with a time bomb, it blew up in their face. So much for all Shel’s and Rubel’s toking this up. Hahah. I hope this Web 2.0 faux rot goes down in flames. I wonder if they pulled, just because a certain someone leaked? Wouldn’t that be choice? 🙂 Feel sorry for Tara tho. But ‘Christopher’s Law’ says: If Scoble is advocating a purchase, you know it’s a short sell.
I think ultimately this will prove to be a bigger deal longterm than AOL’s deal with Google.
Now you are just totally crazy. And Google’s deal with AOL, was an end-result of trainwrecked year of meetings between MFST and AOL. AOL didn’t trust MSN to deliver, they thought you’d abandon and get interested others things like Vista/Office. Frankly MFST should abandon this ill-fated web questing and just get back to making and shipping great software. Never mind the Live/AJAX/Web 2.0 hype.
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PS – Also face reco is an geeky edge-market thing. How many people really want to fiddle with it, and of what practical use is it anyways? Sorting? Most just want to create albums for families to see, with half going to web-creature egoheads and MySpacers that want to document their high-lifes. And if you’d buy Riya, that’s like pissing in your own R&D soup. Just flip over some of your own R&D then. Plus easy duped tech. Geesh.
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PS – Also face reco is an geeky edge-market thing. How many people really want to fiddle with it, and of what practical use is it anyways? Sorting? Most just want to create albums for families to see, with half going to web-creature egoheads and MySpacers that want to document their high-lifes. And if you’d buy Riya, that’s like pissing in your own R&D soup. Just flip over some of your own R&D then. Plus easy duped tech. Geesh.
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Chris,
I think one can reasonably debate about Microsoft’s current and future capabilities in the Web world, but IMHO only a fool discounts the enormous earning and strategic value of what is (admittedly gaggingly) often referred to as Web 2.0. MS can either decide to play in the game or become a has-been.
The 1990’s version of software will be MUCH less important in the scheme of things (businesswise and otherwise) in the next 10-15 years. Gmail, Flickr, Salesforce.com — this is the future.
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Chris,
I think one can reasonably debate about Microsoft’s current and future capabilities in the Web world, but IMHO only a fool discounts the enormous earning and strategic value of what is (admittedly gaggingly) often referred to as Web 2.0. MS can either decide to play in the game or become a has-been.
The 1990’s version of software will be MUCH less important in the scheme of things (businesswise and otherwise) in the next 10-15 years. Gmail, Flickr, Salesforce.com — this is the future.
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Gmail, Flickr, Salesforce.com — this is the future? Ummm, get beyond your nose-level view. Tons of Digital Asset Managment toolsets that have customer needs far beyond a consumerish Flickr photo-sharing service. Replace Notes and Exchange for a swishy webmail? Not likely. Plus gmail crashes on me ALL THE TIME. Never had a webmailer do that, some nice features tho, but frankly Outlook, The Bat! and Eudora kick it. Salesforce, all well and good, but if you think corporates are gonna dump SAP and ERP to rush to a Small Biz hosted SFA software think again, all a time and place. Salesforce has found a hook as big ERP not focusing on the mid-market, to their loss.
They are not the future, as the current becomes the future; easy to adapt up if enough customers demand. You have to take the long macroeconomic view, and not the geeky innovator disrputional, “change the world” fairy tale storyline. Click didn’t displace brick, you know.
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Gmail, Flickr, Salesforce.com — this is the future? Ummm, get beyond your nose-level view. Tons of Digital Asset Managment toolsets that have customer needs far beyond a consumerish Flickr photo-sharing service. Replace Notes and Exchange for a swishy webmail? Not likely. Plus gmail crashes on me ALL THE TIME. Never had a webmailer do that, some nice features tho, but frankly Outlook, The Bat! and Eudora kick it. Salesforce, all well and good, but if you think corporates are gonna dump SAP and ERP to rush to a Small Biz hosted SFA software think again, all a time and place. Salesforce has found a hook as big ERP not focusing on the mid-market, to their loss.
They are not the future, as the current becomes the future; easy to adapt up if enough customers demand. You have to take the long macroeconomic view, and not the geeky innovator disrputional, “change the world” fairy tale storyline. Click didn’t displace brick, you know.
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Robert, I remember like it was yesterday sending you an email saying “wow, you guys gotta buy this new company called Picasa!”
Still think you should have.
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Robert, I remember like it was yesterday sending you an email saying “wow, you guys gotta buy this new company called Picasa!”
Still think you should have.
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[ Coulter ] Salesforce, all well and good, but if you think corporates are gonna dump SAP
Is Salesforce.com going for that market? By “that market” I mean companies / governments that can spend $20M on software and then pay that much in cost overrides? I think they are going for the small to mid sized companies, the ones that are growing today.
Plus gmail crashes on me ALL THE TIME.
I can’t tell if that’s supposed to be sarcasm or not — can you describe what you mean by “gmail crashing”?
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[ Coulter ] Salesforce, all well and good, but if you think corporates are gonna dump SAP
Is Salesforce.com going for that market? By “that market” I mean companies / governments that can spend $20M on software and then pay that much in cost overrides? I think they are going for the small to mid sized companies, the ones that are growing today.
Plus gmail crashes on me ALL THE TIME.
I can’t tell if that’s supposed to be sarcasm or not — can you describe what you mean by “gmail crashing”?
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Hi Stephane,
One of the problems in R&D in the area of extracting semantic meaning from unstructed data – e.g. identifying features in static images – is that many academic research groups operating at what they think is state-of-the-art seem to be rather simplistic in their approaches. I suspect that this is because these are pretty hard problems, and that grad student developers often don’t have the breadth of skills and knowledge necessary to make progress. That’s not a criticism – PhDs are *training* degrees, remember.
So from that perspective of the published literature, I can see where you’re coming from. Replicating what some of the leading academic groups have done in this area takes about an afternoon of coding – it’s actually probably no more than a few tens of lines of code for their core algorithms (let alone 1000 lines). But, that isn’t actually where the *true* state-of-the-art is.
I have no idea what Riya is doing, or what MS is doing; but I do know what one of my own companies is doing in a related area to feature recognition in static images, and that’s feature recognition in video. And I can tell you that what we’re doing is way more complicated than a 1000 lines of code.
You’re right about missing information being a key issue. However, the point is, you can actually *get around* this problem (and therein lies the complexity)…
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Hi Stephane,
One of the problems in R&D in the area of extracting semantic meaning from unstructed data – e.g. identifying features in static images – is that many academic research groups operating at what they think is state-of-the-art seem to be rather simplistic in their approaches. I suspect that this is because these are pretty hard problems, and that grad student developers often don’t have the breadth of skills and knowledge necessary to make progress. That’s not a criticism – PhDs are *training* degrees, remember.
So from that perspective of the published literature, I can see where you’re coming from. Replicating what some of the leading academic groups have done in this area takes about an afternoon of coding – it’s actually probably no more than a few tens of lines of code for their core algorithms (let alone 1000 lines). But, that isn’t actually where the *true* state-of-the-art is.
I have no idea what Riya is doing, or what MS is doing; but I do know what one of my own companies is doing in a related area to feature recognition in static images, and that’s feature recognition in video. And I can tell you that what we’re doing is way more complicated than a 1000 lines of code.
You’re right about missing information being a key issue. However, the point is, you can actually *get around* this problem (and therein lies the complexity)…
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Hi,
“I have no idea what Riya is doing, or what MS is doing; “. I don’t either, but I have read the alpha blogs. Hence my thoughts.
“And I can tell you that what we’re doing is way more complicated than a 1000 lines of code.” Oh, it sure can be more than 1000. Much like the decade it takes to improve the accuracy by 2%, only to find out that the domain space has been so much reduced that it can’t be generalized and it’s also useless for industrial purposes.
I’ll repeat it, given the nature of the problem, general purpose picture matching cannot be solved due to entropy laws, the nature of pictures (lossy jpegs), and all the missing context. I hear Riya is now improving their UI, adding Ajax and stuff like this. More power to them, but that does not change the nature of the problem they originally intended to solve, or even claimed to have solved if you read their today’s blog post.
I have been needlessly discussing technical details while the point of Scoble is to actually tell their boss that he’d like to take the checkbook and go shop. At this point, it does not matter whether it’s Riya or something else.
I believe Riya can be a nice family and friends software.
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Hi,
“I have no idea what Riya is doing, or what MS is doing; “. I don’t either, but I have read the alpha blogs. Hence my thoughts.
“And I can tell you that what we’re doing is way more complicated than a 1000 lines of code.” Oh, it sure can be more than 1000. Much like the decade it takes to improve the accuracy by 2%, only to find out that the domain space has been so much reduced that it can’t be generalized and it’s also useless for industrial purposes.
I’ll repeat it, given the nature of the problem, general purpose picture matching cannot be solved due to entropy laws, the nature of pictures (lossy jpegs), and all the missing context. I hear Riya is now improving their UI, adding Ajax and stuff like this. More power to them, but that does not change the nature of the problem they originally intended to solve, or even claimed to have solved if you read their today’s blog post.
I have been needlessly discussing technical details while the point of Scoble is to actually tell their boss that he’d like to take the checkbook and go shop. At this point, it does not matter whether it’s Riya or something else.
I believe Riya can be a nice family and friends software.
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Larry, I agree on Picasa. I hope we start getting into digitial photography at some point.
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Larry, I agree on Picasa. I hope we start getting into digitial photography at some point.
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Stephane,
“I’ll repeat it, given the nature of the problem, general purpose picture matching cannot be solved due to entropy laws, the nature of pictures (lossy jpegs), and all the missing context.”
But image processing – looking at colours of pixels, and comparing patterns of pixels in different images etc. – is not the way to deal with this kind of problem. I’m not sure if you’re suggesting it is, but it sounds like it.
You can tackle problems of missing information and missing context by the use of models.
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Stephane,
“I’ll repeat it, given the nature of the problem, general purpose picture matching cannot be solved due to entropy laws, the nature of pictures (lossy jpegs), and all the missing context.”
But image processing – looking at colours of pixels, and comparing patterns of pixels in different images etc. – is not the way to deal with this kind of problem. I’m not sure if you’re suggesting it is, but it sounds like it.
You can tackle problems of missing information and missing context by the use of models.
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Chris,
GMail NEVER crashes on me. Not under Safari on my iBook nor IE or Firefox on my XP boxes. So I guess we cancel each other out.
Still not getting why you think MS should be interested in Riya given that MSR, along with several gov. Agencies, is working on face recognition. Do you think that the areas that Riya is better than MSR’s solution are unsolvable by MSR? Do you think it’ll be easier for them to combine Riyas peanut butter with MSRs chocolatte?
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Chris,
GMail NEVER crashes on me. Not under Safari on my iBook nor IE or Firefox on my XP boxes. So I guess we cancel each other out.
Still not getting why you think MS should be interested in Riya given that MSR, along with several gov. Agencies, is working on face recognition. Do you think that the areas that Riya is better than MSR’s solution are unsolvable by MSR? Do you think it’ll be easier for them to combine Riyas peanut butter with MSRs chocolatte?
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Well I must be lucky then. But I swear it’s happened lots, always in IE and Firefox, wonder if a conflicting Extension. Impressed with the new Yahoo tho, more fits my mold. Gmail’s metaphor of grouping doesn’t conform to my random filing habits. I want to be the master, gmail makes that choice for me. That having been said, it’s a great travel email.
As far as Saleforce not going big, I said as much, in that big ERP not focusing on the mid-market, where Salesforce has been able to make some serious SFA traction. But the fact of Salesforce being there isn’t going to displace the major Fortune 500 supply-chain and accounting infrastructure.
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Well I must be lucky then. But I swear it’s happened lots, always in IE and Firefox, wonder if a conflicting Extension. Impressed with the new Yahoo tho, more fits my mold. Gmail’s metaphor of grouping doesn’t conform to my random filing habits. I want to be the master, gmail makes that choice for me. That having been said, it’s a great travel email.
As far as Saleforce not going big, I said as much, in that big ERP not focusing on the mid-market, where Salesforce has been able to make some serious SFA traction. But the fact of Salesforce being there isn’t going to displace the major Fortune 500 supply-chain and accounting infrastructure.
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When you talk so highly about Riya, is it based on what such technology can do or is it based on how well Riya as an application performs? My experience with the latter was very disappointing. Here are my thoughts. The post includes a link to some test images that failed basic image recognition: http://balak.blogspot.com/2005/12/riya-alpha-release-so-alpha-it-hurts.html
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When you talk so highly about Riya, is it based on what such technology can do or is it based on how well Riya as an application performs? My experience with the latter was very disappointing. Here are my thoughts. The post includes a link to some test images that failed basic image recognition: http://balak.blogspot.com/2005/12/riya-alpha-release-so-alpha-it-hurts.html
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http://www.myheritage.com/FP/Company/tryFaceRecognition.php?s=1&u=g0&lang=EN
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http://www.myheritage.com/FP/Company/tryFaceRecognition.php?s=1&u=g0&lang=EN
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What do you think will happen to America in the nearest future? It seems to me that General Election in the USA looks starts to look like comedy show. 😀 Yesterday I found the following post in periodics:
“The Naked Cowboy endorses McCain–ooookay 🙂
The Naked Cowboy was just on tv saying he plans to endorse
McCain. 😀 LOL I’m sure McCain’s camp will relay that to him
and I am sure it will mean all the difference to the
outcome of the election. NOT!
McCain’s entire campaign has been a 3 ring circus. What
happened there? Bozo the clown Bush would have been right
at home if they had let him anywhere near them. ROFL
How exactly does Bush show his face now that his entire
party has disowned him? 😦“
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What do you think will happen to America in the nearest future? It seems to me that General Election in the USA looks starts to look like comedy show. 😀 Yesterday I found the following post in periodics:
“The Naked Cowboy endorses McCain–ooookay 🙂
The Naked Cowboy was just on tv saying he plans to endorse
McCain. 😀 LOL I’m sure McCain’s camp will relay that to him
and I am sure it will mean all the difference to the
outcome of the election. NOT!
McCain’s entire campaign has been a 3 ring circus. What
happened there? Bozo the clown Bush would have been right
at home if they had let him anywhere near them. ROFL
How exactly does Bush show his face now that his entire
party has disowned him? 😦“
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